When "Fine" Isn't Enough: How Catherine Clark Chose to Rebuild Instead of Tolerate

Aransas Savas: [: 00:00:00

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off your first month [: 00:01:00

out in the world who's doing [: 00:01:15

In my research, one of the things I found time and time again that doing big, [00:01:30] brave things, particularly in the second half of our lives, requires us to reimagine our metrics of success. It also requires us to leverage all of our lived experience and alchemize [00:01:45] it into something new that is uniquely meaningful to us.

e's made some pretty radical [: 00:02:00

Catherine, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.

Clark: Thank you for having [: 00:02:15

Aransas Savas: Oh my [00:02:30] gosh. Totally my pleasure. And I'm so excited to be here with you. So take us back a few years. What were you doing three years ago?

tarted a business in my late [: 00:02:45

And it was a very successful business. We [00:03:00] worked with all the sort of big blue chip companies, Starbuckses, PepsiCos, and all of those. And so I would say my life was always pressured, but somehow I managed to create some kind of ecosystem for myself, really [00:03:15] focused on how to align all the different parts of my life, having time for my kids, um, having time in nature.

d the values that I believed [: 00:03:30

I think we all have to know that, you know, there is impermanence that we have to accept. The thing that was [00:03:45] probably changing the most was my partnership with my business partner. We didn't have conflict, but that relationship was no longer fueling energy. It was no longer producing the magic and the energy that it did at the [00:04:00] beginning.

, our employees, we feel all [: 00:04:15

So I think I got myself a little trapped for a little while. And I'm sure my partner felt exactly the same way, and luckily neither of [00:04:30] us created any kind of tension or drama or anything like that, but certainly the beautiful ecosystem had started to fray for sure. So I think that kind of was my state of mind in the last [00:04:45] five years or so.

pecially, was resonant to me [: 00:05:00

And yet I think the [00:05:15] point you're making about our willingness and ability to tolerate those energy depleting circumstances. Is so spot on because I feel like from earliest life, most women are trained to tolerate.

Catherine Clark: We are, [: 00:05:30

And so I grew up feeling that the Art of living was to navigate those things. Yeah. And it didn't necessarily occur to me that. [00:05:45] Maybe we can step away from these things and find harmony elsewhere. So I think many women and men, but I'll speak to women for today, are caught in that paradigm. And I think in particular, when you're able to navigate that well, you can put [00:06:00] forward this very harmonious experience on the outside and people love it, particularly when they see a power couple, for example, doing so well.

e that's actually not happy, [: 00:06:15

I don't have resentment towards my business partner whatsoever, so it's very. A lot of times it turns into these horrendous outward conflicts that leave everybody traumatized. So I was very [00:06:45] worried about that in my process to try and figure out how to move to the next chapter in my life.

ge to address the stagnation [: 00:07:00

On the other side, I think our tendency can be to act from a place of certainty in this place, in this situation, it may not be perfect, [00:07:15] but what's on the other side? It could be worse. It'll definitely be new. It could be uncomfortable. It could destroy some of what I've worked so hard to create. It requires me to rebuild, right?

[: 00:07:30

Catherine Clark: I think all the ones who listed right this, um, not wanting to let people down.

what might happen. And also, [: 00:08:00

So I kind of waited and I think. When we get to our fifties, something happens. Our, my children became adults. They left the nest. They started to [00:08:30] become more independent. That opened up a whole new dynamic in my life. So suddenly that chapter opens. Our parents were getting elderly, were traveling more to see them.

these things started to set [: 00:08:45

And what I noticed was a lot of people being scared tight, [00:09:15] trying to cling onto what they had.

Music: Hmm.

ing was right for me. Things [: 00:09:30

So that's how I got to this next phase really of, of what I'm doing now.

iful point you've made here. [: 00:09:45

In fact, there is change happening at every moment. And so these binary questions that we ask ourselves, will this be the right choice? [00:10:15] Is one actually I've thought about a lot lately in my own life because we made the choice to move our family and it's been wonderful in so many ways and we are still grieving some of the things we gave up in that move.[00:10:30]

And I said to my husband the other day, I was like, I think we have to find another question choice. That question is not serving us any longer. That's right. Because who knows? We'll never answer that question.

erine Clark: One person that [: 00:10:45

He likens us to [00:11:00] the ocean. So we are the ocean, but we're also the wave. And the wave comes out and then it melts back into the ocean. So we're all part of something, but then this sense of belonging to something that is constantly changing. And so I dug [00:11:15] deep and tried to unpack that a little bit when I was going through all these decision making moments, and I realized that.

ings. And I went all the way [: 00:11:30

And the best thing to do is to make them move, give them free reign, push them forward, let them express themselves, and suddenly they become reconnected. They become open, they [00:12:00] become fluid, and you can start to reconnect with them. So I realize, I know this inside, I feel this in my body, this idea of how to move.

y helped me in my transition [: 00:12:15

Aransas Savas: How beautiful that image is so powerful, and it reminds me of something my friend carpool says often, which is [00:12:30] emotion is energy in motion.

hat lets us both release the [: 00:12:45

Catherine Clark: that emotion. Emotion, cool. Right? It's a beautiful thing. So then becomes, how do you move? Wow, how [00:13:00] do you move? You know, you could throw yourself all over the place, but you, you'll get hurt.

So it's really about learning how to move with grace and how to move with strength.

And who was that writer for [: 00:13:15

Catherine Clark: So I think for me, learning how to move came through a practice called Gers, which is a combination of. Tai Chi, yoga and dance, [00:13:30] but essentially it's a study of movement and how to move in a way that actually expands your body instead of hurting it.

aking you a bigger, stronger [: 00:13:45

The idea that things have to be connected, and I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier. How do you make the whole thing move in concert as opposed to [00:14:15] moving one piece and hurting all the other pieces? Mm-hmm. So I spent a lot of time trying to think through what I learned physically, whether it's the horses or the omics, and applying it to how I was going to move, what I was gonna offer my [00:14:30] clients, because I think they're all in desperate need of knowing how to move themselves.

uidity and that momentum for [: 00:14:45

Aransas Savas: How beautiful. And I wanna talk about how you did that for your clients. We've heard in a sense how you did that in your own life, talking about the alignment that allowed you to be in Vermont, to be present for your children, [00:15:00] to be impactful in your work.

ought about where you wanted [: 00:15:15

Catherine Clark: So, I love what I do.

Music: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Clark: I never stop loving what I do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is basically to help clients make their brands better.

ht. So that didn't change. I [: 00:15:30

So I wanted to create an environment where creativity was for everyone. And that meant breaking down roles, breaking down [00:16:00] silos and conventions, and hiring people that were ambidextrous in their brains so they didn't have the barriers between those things. And then the other thing I would say is I wanted to remove the frictions that I [00:16:15] observed in my business previously that get in the way of creativity and wellbeing.

starting something, stopping [: 00:16:30

But that was really what I set out to do, is to bring movement into the business that I'm in.

hink the first big lesson in [: 00:17:00

This thing was not working for me, so I never wanna do that again. And what you said is. [00:17:15] There are things I love about this and there are things that are not working for me, and I'm gonna piece those out instead of wholesale, just dumping it in the trash and starting from scratch without a sense of urgency, a sense of [00:17:30] clearing the way.

sson in what you've said. Is [: 00:17:45

From what is this moment perfect for? Well, I have a little bit more freedom. I don't have my children at home. I have a bit more [00:18:00] flexibility to invest in the build phase of an organization. What is this moment perfect for? I need more freedom and flexibility to travel, to be present from, right, so it's like really folding in all of these different [00:18:15] domains while at the same time laying that alongside this Venn diagram of what does the world need?

ur client, what do they need [: 00:18:30

Catherine Clark: That's right. It doesn't mean to say we have to follow threats. You can go against the grain, but as you [00:18:45] just said, I think.

re in tune with what they're [: 00:19:00

So. I think that's, you have an ability to really summarize and [00:19:15] elevate things. But I think that's also super profound is, is being in tune with the moment

he world, it's rather how do [: 00:19:30

So with all of this in mind, what changed? In your ways of working,

lark: I'll use this movement [: 00:19:45

And so you're with a cutting edge sports organization. Very different culture to me, but I learned what preparation looks like. And it's the same thing with a Formula One driver. They [00:20:15] are going through that circuit so many times in their head before they actually race it. They already know what they'll do if it rains, they'll know if somebody crashes in front of, they'll know if their, you know, their power's gone down.

So I think on the team [: 00:20:30

What if they put it on hold? What if they have a different idea? We suddenly we're in a safe space. We visualize what we'll do. And then when you're live, you're [00:21:00] in the moment. You just know what to do, you're not even thinking about it. You're able to react in the moment. So that removes all these, I don't know, what are you gonna say?

w is completely finished. So [: 00:21:15

Aransas Savas: I wanna hear more, but uh, this one is so interesting to me. Because most of the time [00:21:30] what ifs are paralyzing and you've translated them into something at the other end of a spectrum preparing.

o guide your team through to [: 00:21:45

Catherine Clark: I turned the what ifs into exciting provocations? Instead of like, well, what if this happened? It's more, okay, take this scenario, what [00:22:00] will you do then? And it's like a challenge.

're gonna do. And so I think [: 00:22:15

And going in there, not hoping for a specific outcome. But feeling that we're prepared for many outcomes.

Music: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Clark: And I did [: 00:22:30

And it's just, it became very aspirational to me to be able to. Be ready

osting confidence instead of [: 00:23:00

Catherine Clark: so it's problem solving. What if, yeah. Ooh, I will do something. What will I do? I will do this.

to finding every eventuality [: 00:23:15

Mm-hmm. [00:23:30] But that's saved me, I really, and I think when I made the big move, I had very limited time to reincorporate and reopen. I had gone through so many scenarios and I felt excited. I was like, bring it, you know, I'm ready. Put me in [00:23:45] the game. Coach. Yeah.

Aransas Savas: So talk about some of the other major shifts that you made in this highly flexible and aligned organization that you built.

Catherine Clark: So you talked about getting rid of stuff.

Music: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Clark: What I [: 00:24:00

Yes. So I started to realize, why are we even writing decks? Who wants to write a deck? It's not creative, it's not necessary. Nobody ever sees it on the outside. So I said, no [00:24:30] debts. And I kind of went through the list of all those things that don't add value and thought, you know what, we're not gonna do that anymore.

know? Nobody's, and I think [: 00:24:45

And I think that that fueled creativity. The other thing I think I did keep, and you talked about keeping things and getting rid of things, I kept my ops person who, for a company of five people to have a [00:25:15] ops person on staff seems excessive. I realized that if we have one person who's responsible for always being ahead of us on technology, what's the latest AI thing I should be looking at?

And also just making [: 00:25:30

Aransas Savas: I love that. And you would never have been able to.

life, we are so much better [: 00:26:00

We know some stuff. It's just that we don't necessarily, because of our risk aversion and for many of us, our fear of breaking down what we've worked so hard to create, don't take the calculated [00:26:30] risk that you're taking.

Catherine Clark: I think there's an atmosphere when you get in your fifties and it's very pronounced in the US that you're not a great employee anymore for some reason.

r people to get a new job to [: 00:26:45

Which [00:27:00] is great because they actually have, as you say, so much knowledge. I'm hoping it creates a reverse. Economy where suddenly organizations are like, hang on a minute, I'm gonna go and get this 60-year-old over here because they've got something to offer. That is [00:27:15] knowledge and wisdom and insight and maybe more intuition in some ways.

But I think that second half of life, I think I need to rebrand that so it doesn't feel like the last half somehow,

Savas: but I think of it as [: 00:27:30

Catherine Clark: True it feel. Yeah. You are not agonizing about all those things that Yeah. You know, maybe were difficult.

Aransas Savas: I feel like an adult now.

Catherine Clark: That was the goal.

ay. Yeah, so I think it's, I [: 00:27:45

Aransas Savas: fulfilled.

cent science that shows that [: 00:28:15

Going back to this idea of how you built your team, and it is very much related to what you were just saying about, I hope this creates [00:28:45] a reverse trend in which companies are saying, oh, I do want this neurodiverse 25-year-old sitting beside this deeply traditional 60-year-old woman. And I wanna see [00:29:00] what magic comes outta their brains.

d so talk about why that was [: 00:29:15

Catherine Clark: I think first of all, what, back to the frictions, you definitely want to have a team that can build on each other and feel excited to come into work. Right? As soon as you have toxicity, I mean, that's over.

[: 00:29:30

Really very organized or very strategic in their mind, but they're a designer or vice versa. They're an account person, but they're an incredible writer or they're a strategist that [00:30:00] can somehow dabble into photography or design. So I am handpicking people who have that duality that makes them sometimes less desirable because they never quite fit where they need to be, [00:30:15] but they can find a home here.

ause it's coming together to [: 00:30:30

I'm not the first person to say this. But that's where I spent most of [00:30:45] my energy in this particular next chapter that I've started is the team. Sure. And making sure that they are healthy and that they buy into what we're doing fully. Why is that the most important piece when it isn't? And I've seen this with [00:31:00] the 25 years that I had my previous agency.

g? And you told me this. Oh, [: 00:31:15

So you're chasing all these [00:31:30] things and it's actually extremely difficult. So it's so important to start right and try and keep it right, because when it goes off, it's actually easier to tell what's wrong if the rest of it is healthy. And we can see just, I don't wanna get [00:31:45] political at all, but just macro.

s impacting everything else. [: 00:32:00

Aransas Savas: One of the lessons from this is to go back to basics.

It was easier to [: 00:32:15

Moving and it really is so [00:32:45] elemental and it's the stuff we've all been taught since we were five years old probably. And yet in chaos, those are the first things to go. And so we, we start at that elemental level and then that allows us [00:33:00] to build with our logical brains instead of that primal brain that is just fighting for survival.

meter circle, [: 00:33:15

The only answer is going back to that and it does start with. Your own health. I think the other thing that happens when you hit 50 is the white knuckling that we do so well when we're younger just [00:33:45] getting through it doesn't work anymore. Your body just kind of says no, and so you're, you are obliged to get the message, and I think that's a healthy thing because it, it teaches you to say, okay, I [00:34:00] do have to.

Spend my Fridays offline working, but doing solo work. I can't speak five days a week. I can speak four days a week. You know, you, you get into these, these, these realities that you have to follow

honoring those boundaries. I [: 00:34:15

Catherine Clark: I was a big [00:34:30] culprit actually in being proud of how much of a beating I could take. And I think that can happen too, is I managed to fly here, fly back, drive there, not sleep. And I think that unfortunately, inadvertently, that influences other people [00:34:45] too. So that is definitely something that is more in our cultural conscience today than it was when I first started working 35 years ago.

But it's something we should be conscious of for, for others as well.

Aransas Savas: That's really [: 00:35:00

Catherine Clark: How did you define success

Aransas Savas: then?

an do and I can do this with [: 00:35:15

Mm. And I think that's a very treacherous path. I don't have regrets, right? All these things are lessons. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm still looking to keep expanding, but what I've learned is we have to breathe. [00:35:30] So, you know, you have to exhale a little bit while you, you know, you can't just keep ballooning. I have memories of being in my car and having to pull over on the side of the road thinking, oh my God, this is too much.

country. I'm flying to this [: 00:35:45

Aransas Savas: How do you see success now?

nces, but doing it in a very [: 00:36:15

It's just quite incredible and I think watching nature and how it [00:36:30] grows and it goes bonkers in the summer, it's just like wild. And then it just, you know, recuperate over the winter and I think spending more time connected, very close to what I would call. Very vivid nature in the [00:36:45] mountains has helped me respect my own rhythms as well.

Mm-hmm. And, and know when to push until after the little vines go out and when to, you know, take a moment to, to replenish, but is

Aransas Savas: [: 00:37:00

That's right. Instead of a short burst and burning out [00:37:30] and then having to recover and take a step back and then pushing forward. It is a steadier progression, I imagine.

t's a difficult way to hear. [: 00:37:45

Aransas Savas: right? Like if everything isn't peaks and valleys, it's just a steady upward slope.

ts. Mm-hmm. So that's just a [: 00:38:00

Aransas Savas: I'll tell you the image that comes to mind as you say that. When I was birthing my first daughter, I did it naturally, like with the midwife hippy birth, and [00:38:15] I labored for a really, really long time.

me and she goes, your legs, [: 00:38:30

It was such an eye-opening reminder in all of life that we have to let these passages happen. If our minds and our bodies have been trained for strength and endurance [00:39:00] and resilience, that release is often the scariest. And needs the most conscious awareness. In some

Catherine Clark: ways, you had to muster up the strength to surrender.

Yes, and actually, and I

didn't know that that's what [: 00:39:15

Catherine Clark: It's a very interesting thing you brought up about how we are [00:39:30] hired to push through to achieve. And I do think surrendering is part of the process of acceptance and it's part of the whole process of breathing in and out and all of those things.

And we're not taught [: 00:39:45

Aransas Savas: Our constant messages to go harder. [00:40:00] Often may misleading and what we need most perhaps, is to go softer and prea as you've built, it feels like a much softer organism.

ine Clark: It's, it's fluid, [: 00:40:15

It is definitely, it's not less impactful, but it's being done with fluidity and suppleness.

guest who she believes would [: 00:40:30

Catherine Clark: I'm going to nominate somebody who's on the next generation for me, so she's coming sort of in the next wave and hopefully much more wise than, than us Gen Xers were [00:40:45] as we got through this, these big careers.

d CW Pencils, and I remember [: 00:41:00

And her new venture is called the Locavore, and she's created a guide of local businesses all around New York. She personally walked every single block of all the borrows [00:41:30] and collected all these little businesses that aren't registered anywhere from a deli to a shoe store, to a flower shop. And so she's created this thing and she has a store now in New York City.

ominate her is. I admire her [: 00:41:45

Aransas Savas: Thank you. Yes, and I think it's so wise for us to keep learning from those who. Those who are on the [00:42:15] road, and also those are coming up behind us. So honestly, excuse. That sounded creepy when I said it that way, but it's not, [00:42:30] I promise. It's, it's true. I just think they're

Catherine Clark: cool. They feed things differently.

med by different generation, [: 00:42:45

Aransas Savas: It really has. It really has. So as Uplifters, we love to support and uplift other uplifters. How can we support you and the beautiful work that you're doing in the [00:43:00] world?

Catherine,

maybe something that you are [: 00:43:15

This is my new thing. I love it. It's a beautiful thing. Thank you, Karin. So I think knowing that maybe somebody will try this [00:43:30] out or think about it for a minute or two would be of tremendous help to me, just knowing I've inspired

p and explore some different [: 00:43:45

A more gentle, loving approach to movement. Sounds really delicious. And right,

h conversation. I absolutely [: 00:44:00

Aransas Savas: been such a. Thank you for listening to the Uplifters podcast. If you're getting a boost from these episodes, please share them with the Uplifters in your life and [00:44:15] then join us in conversation over@theuplifterspodcast.com.

our show, it'll really help [: 00:44:30

Music: Mm Ah, big love painted water, sunshine. Throws Mary and [00:44:45] I dwelling. Not perplexing though.

springtime dance. With that [: 00:45:00

Lift you up.[00:45:15]

Lift you up.

Lift you up.

Lift you[: 00:45:30

lift.

Mm. [: 00:45:45

It's that little thing you did with your voice, right? In the pre-course, right? Uhhuh. Uhhuh. I was like, mommy, quiet mommy. Stop crying. You're disturbing the peace.