Hala Alyan on Motherhood, Identity, and Resilience

TUP EP 133

Aransas Savas: [: 00:00:00

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Nomination: Hala Alyan. She writes about the atrocities and the dreams [00:01:15] deferred from love torn relationships as a mother, author, curator, anthropologist, and psychologist, she's a cultural worker who remains a beacon of resilience to us all.

ove how she does not must or [: 00:01:30

Aransas Savas: Welcome to the Uplifters podcast, where every week I get the great privilege of talking to woman who's doing [00:01:45] big, brave work in the world and who generously. Shares her process and mindset with us so that we can all do big, brave things in our worlds too.

Today I'm talking to [: 00:02:00

You wear a lot of hats. A poet, a novelist, a [00:02:30] memoirist, a clinical psychologist, a mom, a Palestinian American identity, a Brooklynite identity. You've lived between so many different places. You've spoken so many different languages, had so many different [00:02:45] experiences. So if you were to introduce yourself,

Hala Alyan: that's good.

ltural therapy class that I, [: 00:03:00

[00:03:15] And then you cross out one of them and then you're left with the top four. And that we, I should make you do it. And then you cross out another one, and then you left with three. Then you cross out another one, and then you're left with one. And usually it's the three to two and two to one that are the hardest.

And so as [: 00:03:30

Consistent in terms of like where they are in my life for the last however many years. But I definitely think the last few years 'cause also the, like both Reza and my daughter's birth were not, I mean they didn't overlap exactly. My, my [00:04:15] daughter was like a year and a half when October 7th happened. But like, it's that role of like really gelling into what it means to be a mother has not felt separate from Palestine for me.

Aransas Savas: And so that's been

esting, like to mother while [: 00:04:30

And so yeah, those are the two that I, I would be like, I, I think I would say those, those have felt really central

g your process through that, [: 00:05:00

Hala Alyan: I think like the Palestinian ness in general, and I think people. People of color, like Bipoc folks, people that belong [00:05:15] to marginalized ID identities. This is true for all. Like I don't think this is just a Palestinian thing, but is that you? I mean, there is something about the salience of that identity that has a lot to do with the urgency of the moment.

ght? So like I, I would love [: 00:05:30

And so it's interesting too to have to kind of continuously renegotiate what it means to be stepping into an identity that you're also, there's, there's [00:06:00] also all of these like presupposed. Projections onto, you know, that are like not necessarily coming outta. So it's like my relationship to my Palestinian is something that has been really complicated and changed depending on whether I'm living in Beirut or [00:06:15] living, you know what I mean?

g about positionality, like. [: 00:06:30

Aransas Savas: That word sence is so rich. What does it mean to you? It's so rich.

w, again, like visceral, how [: 00:06:45

Am I doing it right? Am I doing it enough? Like, so I think there's, like, that's the salience, whereas mm-hmm there, there have certainly been years and eras of my life, particularly what I lived in the Arab world, where I didn't really, and that's not to say it wasn't a [00:07:15] complicated identity there in many ways, but it was like.

mean, on an hourly, multiple [: 00:07:30

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The four words that came up as I, as I heard that were urgency and importance. Playing a, a huge [00:07:45] factor in, in that, but also interdependence.

Hala Alyan: Yes, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And really negotiating what that interdependence looks like in actually in both of the roles,

Aransas Savas: you know?

Yeah, I bet. [: 00:08:00

Hala Alyan: inter right? So like survival as a human on a day-to-day basis, watching. Eradication and erasure of Palestinians.

day that goes by that you're [: 00:08:30

I am not living in mortal terror on a, on a, like an hour to hour, [00:08:45] minutes, minute basis. And so that also. Yeah, there's something about the fragmentation I think of, of the identity that's also just, I mean, it's, it's not a coincidence, it's, it's intentionally done. But I think that's something that comes up for me too a lot is like to think of [00:09:00] the ways to like keep reasserting existence and presence in the face of these larger erasure that are happening.

g. I mean, I have never. The [: 00:09:15

And so that's also really, you know, like then you're like, okay, guess this is what I'm doing now. Like,

how. We begin by looking at [: 00:09:45

A hundred percent.

thinking about what it means [: 00:10:00

You got a lot of privilege. Right? So it's like to have [00:10:15] this conversation, it's like, woo, we got, we got so much, not just like the ability of time or internet or access or whatever, but I mean even just like the ability to have enough. Stillness in [00:10:30] one's life internally and externally to be able to ponder aloud a.

ernally and externally to be [: 00:10:45

Aransas Savas: mm-hmm.

Hala Alyan: In that way is like, what

agination. I do imagine that [: 00:11:00

During the Dust Bowl, who was barely surviving. Sure. Who was literally creating a home every couple of months out of whatever little scrap she could find [00:11:15] as they moved from crop to crop as she was out there picking in the fields. Mm-hmm. She was pondering. She was contemplating like, how is my husband talking to me?

eah, yeah. Are my kids okay? [: 00:11:30

Hala Alyan: like that is part of the human condition, right? Is to be like thinking and wondering and like storytelling. Yes. Yeah. You see that? I mean, that's very true. Yeah. Like the fact that like. It's not like oral tradition of storytelling or poetry or music or art stops.

Right. [: 00:11:45

Aransas Savas: No. Yeah. And the privilege to be able to step back and say, is this working for me?

p back and the ability to be [: 00:12:00

Yeah, yeah. I have some agency and authority here, you know what I mean? As opposed to like Yeah. The, like, you know, millions upon millions of people around the world where it's like that agency is continuously infringed upon. [00:12:15] And so when you have a, you know, like. Yeah, like someone like has the, where it's like been besieged for, you know, 18 years where it's like,

Aransas Savas: you know, free.

lations. I mean things like, [: 00:12:30

We can have policies about like, whatcha talking about? Right. Yeah, but you're right. It is, it's the stepping back and then being like, I have, you know, we were just talking about this before we started recording, where it's like, so [00:13:00] what are we gonna do? What are we, you know, like, where do I wanna live?

rces and it enough access to [: 00:13:15

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Hala Alyan: That is not something to take lightly.

Aransas Savas: It's freedom.

Hala Alyan: It's freedom. it's a kind of freedom, absolutely.

I love this as an [: 00:13:30

Hala Alyan: You really just what? Yeah. We don't like, really, I mean, and yet it's all connected.

u When I'm Home. Mm-hmm. Um, [: 00:13:45

Interview for the show very recently, Christina Jimenez, who wrote the book, dreaming of Home. Yes. With very, very [00:14:00] similar and yet different, I say incredibly similar themes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so Home as somebody who recently moved, has been on my mind a lot. The person who most felt like home for me recently [00:14:15] passed.

xile. And now you are making [: 00:14:30

Hala Alyan: yeah. First of all, I'm really sorry for your loss. Thank you.

ust like, shelters is really [: 00:14:45

I think in general the advice we give writing students and ourselves and whatever is like you weigh a beat. You have, you give your system a chance to like process that a thing has happened, you know? Or like teach from your scars, not your wounds experience. Exactly. [00:15:15] If it's too raw, you can't get a little bit of distance from it.

something more memoir. I was [: 00:15:30

Currently living in was going to make a compelling narrative, and that I thought was kind of the primary thing. And then that became secondary because the primary [00:15:45] thing became that it was also incredibly powerful to write through it. So that's what it was. It wasn't even like writing to writing in hindsight to process a thing.

It was like literally writing to walk my way, my walk myself through a thing.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

: Which is a very particular [: 00:16:00

Aransas Savas: you

Hala Alyan: know, like for trying to, you know, trying to get ready to welcome a new life in.

things like inheritance and [: 00:16:30

But I think there was definitely a, [00:16:45] a real kind of like taking stock and like excavation and like, what is going to stay here on these larger scales? And, and that ended up including questions of like. The marriage that I was in, you know, like, what is gonna stay, what is gonna go? But I, there's [00:17:00] no way to know that that was happening while it was happening.

Aransas Savas: Mm. Because

I, this, this book has been [: 00:17:15

And then it was really interesting to launch because I was so dissociated, which was like kind of the [00:17:30] perfect head space to launch a book incidentally is like what's happening right now because it's, the stakes feel like nothing, right? Yeah. Like it's if the, if the, you know, if the, if the stakes a book launch

Aransas Savas: in another

Hala Alyan: time

aziest, whereas now I'm just.[: 00:17:45

Hala Alyan: People are being like, there is a famine stage five famine forcibly imposed on 2 million people like that. Like there's, the stakes are so different right now that it really put things in perspective. Actually, it was kind of like. You know, if someone likes it, they like it. If they don't like it, they don't like it.[00:18:00]

so I think that. So just so [: 00:18:15

The launching and touring of it felt a little bit dissociated. You know, it was kind of outside of my body the whole time, but now it's been a few months and in the aftermath something interesting is happening where I'm like, [00:18:30] I'm starting to work on a new project and I'm just like, wow, that was really a gift, that experience like that.

d some things that didn't go [: 00:18:45

Because I think then when October 7th happened, I was, I just [00:19:00] spent a couple of years really diving into like my family history. Asking myself these questions of like what it meant to be diasporic and what does it mean to be inside and outside of a thing. And yeah, so then like this, these, all of these things happened and I was like, oh, I've kind of been prepping for it.[00:19:15]

ly certainty is that we are. [: 00:19:30

Mm-hmm. And so it's almost like you're back in that phase again. I think that's sort of where I [00:19:45] feel.

Hala Alyan: Yeah. And that's also part of like, that's also kind of what happens when you're. Starting a project. So also I think like creatively, I'm at the beginning of a thing again, and that's always like weird and kind of insecure and kind of cute and kind of, you know.

on a life level, given what [: 00:20:00

Yeah. [00:20:15] Yeah, I'm sort of back to the drawing board, which I guess is the face, the core facet of what it means to be alive, right? Is to continuously be pulled back to the drawing board. Like I'm like back to not knowing. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't, and who knows what has been put into place in [00:20:30] terms of the book or in terms of conversations like these, or in terms, I mean, you can have a random conversation with a stranger and that will change the course of, I really believe that.

trying to pay attention to. [: 00:20:45

Like is there some, it doesn't have to be that clear, but what is it like, [00:21:00] if you could distill it into a moment or a sound or you know, a visual, like what would that be? Like two years ago, I would've just been like, oh, that's really cool. Now I'm like, huh,

Aransas Savas: huh,

Hala Alyan: interesting.

Aransas Savas: What

Hala Alyan: is the, I wanna sit with that.

e everything feels more like [: 00:21:15

Aransas Savas: yeah, yeah. It's like what we are tuned into.

Hala Alyan: Yes. With our

I hear in your response that [: 00:21:30

Exactly. Right. Because we can, I get think, get so scared of like not knowing that we just retreat back into the familiar. [00:21:45] And so what I hear you having done and now maybe embarking on doing again, is saying, I don't know. How exciting is that? Like I'm gonna wake myself up and start to pay attention [00:22:00] and find the little breadcrumbs that lead me.

I think there's something in.

Like I can get really like, [: 00:22:15

Commit suicide less in like [00:22:30] middle age. And then the caveat here would it spikes again, particularly for white cis men in sixties and seventies. So just caveat there. Interesting. But for like women for example, like, or you know, cis women or there's limited. You know, research is still being done on other [00:22:45] groups, but like for many other people, there's this risk that occurs in adolescence that then does start to go down a little bit.

of that is that you haven't [: 00:23:00

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Hala Alyan: This is just it, man. You get your heartbroken at 39 and you're like, this fucking sucks. Mm-hmm. And now I'm probably gonna lose two years to this bullshit. And who knows how I'm gonna rebuild it. And I'm not, I don't even like who I am as I'm like dealing with this, whatever, you know what I mean?

it's a different, like, but [: 00:23:30

Right. Nor is uncertainty gonna be permanent. And so you're just kind of like, you know, honey, even if you do nothing at some point. An answer is gonna come along uhhuh. You know what I mean? It might take longer, you know, than if you're like mindfully, really [00:24:00] willfully in the world and like asking these questions of yourselves and having these conversations.

will happen. There will be a [: 00:24:15

Aransas Savas: Yeah.

Hala Alyan: And so I think that's also one of the things that I have come to rely on where I'm just like, you know.

It can't, nothing can stay like this.

e right thing for right now? [: 00:24:30

Hala Alyan: Yeah. So be cozy. And the shittiness I like, I also am like, I'm kind of big on just like, just get cozy. Get cozy and the unpleasantness, it's fine. And again, like, you know, I wanna like o circle back to what we were saying earlier about privilege.

That's a super privileged [: 00:24:45

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. Just can't,

Hala Alyan: just like buckle, you

ey're still digging into the [: 00:25:15

Hala Alyan: I think there is, and I think it's very much linked, connected to those two things. And I think also like perimenopause [00:25:30] and menopause, like there's, like mental health actually tends to improve after menopause. Like there's all these like physical discomforts and I think the, the road there can be rocky obviously for in different ways.

, and there's a lot of quote [: 00:25:45

Gathered a bunch of data. Yeah. But also the inter, you know what I mean? So like if you're like, you know, if you're, if there's like a terror of abandonment or like a desire to be validated by people or whatever, like that's really backed up by being told that your worth [00:26:15] is, whether you have those things, you know?

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

ot of times there is kind of [: 00:26:30

But I think it, it also [00:26:45] feels like liberation for some people.

Aransas Savas: It's

Hala Alyan: all

e there's our unifying theme [: 00:27:00

You are very consciously right now making decisions [00:27:15] about what to tell your daughter. About her inheritance Yes. And her potential in the world. Mm-hmm. And so how are you thinking about that? What are you choosing to tell her? What do you [00:27:30] most want her to understand?

Hala Alyan: I mean, I will say that there's a, a, a little co cowardly part of me that has been so grateful the last two years that my daughter's too young to have.

I know friends of mine with [: 00:27:45

And I think that, yeah, I don't want to pretend to her that the world is a just place and I don't wanna pretend to her. I don't wanna like feign a [00:28:15] sense of equity or downplay my or her privileges or the privileges of likely a lot of people she's gonna be in like, you know, daily contact with. I want her to be someone that thinks about service, and I want her to be somebody that thinks about how to show up [00:28:30] for people and I want her to be someone that, the, the flip side of that is like to, to not to know that, like there, like the antidote to that.

point or another. Is in the [: 00:28:45

Like it's, there's something in the, there's such a bidirectionality there. To look at something, to take in something and to be moved and changed by it. Like those are the moments that I feel most connected to humanity in general, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:29:15] Whether that's through art or through just like a conversation with somebody or whatever, like, so I hope to be able to give her enough experiences of that in her childhood, that it becomes.

like, you know, we, we used [: 00:29:30

[00:29:45] That's It's a part of their, yeah, the mythology of the family. It's a part of their own mythos. It's a part of like just what it is and like, they just always know it and they've heard it in different ways. And did you say mythos? Yes. That's so cute. That's so good. I don't even think that's a [00:30:00] word. I like it.

It really does. I was like. [: 00:30:15

I mean, I called it out not to say, oh no, it was an admiration, and I Wait.

been missing this word? All. [: 00:30:30

Hala Alyan: I do. But I think there is something where it's like similarly, like, you know, you want her to know where she's come from in all these different ways.

the world and you gotta show [: 00:30:45

Already be doing that. Mm-hmm. So that it just intuitively makes sense that that's how one would move through life. [00:31:00]

is not being able to choose, [: 00:31:15

And everything happening to us. And so I feel like given. Where your two core areas of focus are right now, there has to be an [00:31:30] inherent challenge in teaching your child. To be a leader in her own life.

on that word because it just [: 00:31:45

Almost like the hero archetype that like something wise just on my shoulders. Like I, which also in terms of activism or how we show up for causes smart, it's like, it's idea that like, there's one person that's gonna be able to solve that, you know, [00:32:00] where it's like, no, that's not, you know, it's, it's, it's.

I think it's like I would, I [: 00:32:15

And the flip side of that is I want her to be able to take accountability for the things she needs to take accountability for. Mm-hmm. Because I think that has become, so if there's any kind of. Theme [00:32:30] that's really emerged in the last couple of years for me, kind of personally and like Sociopolitically.

and amend making and how we [: 00:32:45

Mm-hmm. Like misuses and like abuses of power. Power is not gonna be the thing that red lines itself.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

that's, I think, what we're [: 00:33:15

I'm like, what are we modeling for our kids? About like, is this life just a zero sum game? And like, [00:33:30] if you have a piece of the pie, that means one less piece of the pie for me. So I want that piece of pie. Like, you know, like what we, what are we communicating to, to these little human beings that are eventually, this is their world.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

tability has become, I think [: 00:33:45

Actually. I think what we're talking about when we have these larger conversations is like how to be accountable for your life,

Aransas Savas: you know,

nafraid to do that. And then [: 00:34:15

Yeah. Otherwise,

ack to that word engagement. [: 00:34:30

And, but that can't happen when we are accountable. That's right. When we are present, when we are awake, when we engage and just dip our little toes in. That's right. Even just a slightly. That's right.

t you were obsessed with the [: 00:35:45

Yeah. And I certainly see that in your characters, that it's like through mundane moments and actions, we both see and feel our universality, but we [00:36:00] also find these, these bigger themes. Feel like I've heard you do this already 50 times in 37 minutes,

urse nominated for this show [: 00:38:00

Hala Alyan: wanna swim just an in my God. And just like present, talk about presence. Talk about [00:38:15] like the. Consistent unflinching will willingness to just like attend to what's at hand like that is her.

u know what I mean? Like she [: 00:38:30

It's like, calm a person's nerve. That's, I would [00:38:45] love to be able to do that, to calm people's nervous system when I enter a room. I don't think I have that effect.

Aransas Savas: And we need those mentors, and I think it's why we need stories. Yes. So desperately. Hundred

Hala Alyan: percent.

Hundred percent. Yeah.

Aransas Savas: So who would you nominate for the Uplifters podcast?

Hala Alyan: So I [: 00:39:45

As bravely as I'm flinching ly with as much courage and as much clarity in my voice and in my writing as I can. And so [00:40:30] she's also a good friend of mine. So it's like that, that again, that combo of like both friend and someone that you're like, yes, I love how you're moving through the world is really like beautiful.

Yeah.

Aransas Savas: I've made it a big commitment in my life to surround myself with people I admire.

Hala Alyan: [: 00:40:45

Aransas Savas: It really, it really, yeah. Makes for a clear filter.

nt to invest more energy in? [: 00:43:30

Hala Alyan: I think, well, so I think I'm investing a lot in mothering and I wanna kind of keep that going. Yeah. You know, I, I feel like I feel good about where I'm, where I'm, that's really been like the, that's the sort of compass these days.

And then I [: 00:43:45

And then I kind, I just, I'm like really excited about learning more about different art forms. Like I do a lot of collaging. I've been doing like [00:44:15] R of printing and playing around with different visual art stuff and like, I wanna, I'd like to try to take that a little bit more seriously.

Aransas Savas: Cool. Cool. Be a beginner.

So as Uplifters, we love to [: 00:45:45

Yeah. So how can we as a community support you and your work right now?

I'm notoriously terrible at [: 00:46:00

Aransas Savas: or listen to it on Audible

Hala Alyan: and.

If you're in New York, give [: 00:46:15

Um, we just did a beautiful fundraiser for Sudan. And yeah, it's really like lovely. There's an open mic and there's music and there's poets and fiction writers and memoirs and it's really lovely.

vas: That's really lovely. I [: 00:46:45

Hala Alyan: and I think, I mean, sort of like it's You should come.

You should definitely come. I'll, there's one on Friday, actually.

Aransas Savas: It was really great talking to

Hala Alyan: you,

Aransas Savas: hada. This was

really appreciate it. Thank [: 00:47:00

Aransas Savas: Thank you for listening to the Uplifters podcast. If you're getting a boost from these episodes, please share them with the Uplifters in your life and then join us [00:47:15] in conversation over@theuplifterspodcast.com.

ly help us connect with more [: 00:47:30

Music: Big love painted water, sunshine with rosemary. I dwelling, [00:47:45] perplexing. You find it.

ce. With that all hindsight, [: 00:48:00

lift you up,

lift you up,[: 00:48:15

lift you up.

Lift you up.

Lift you[: 00:48:30

lift.

Beautiful. I cried. [: 00:48:45

Aransas Savas: It's that little thing you did with your voice, right? In the pre-course, right? Uh, Uhhuh. I was like,

Music: mommy, quiet mommy. Stop crying. You're disturbing the peace.