Outrunning OCD with Reverend Katie O'Dunne

Aransas Savas (: 00:01

Welcome to the Uplifters podcast. I'm your host, Aransas Savas, and today I am downright giddy to be joined by Reverend Katie O’Dunne. You just heard Leslie Shapiro introducing her, but a little bit more about Katie before we chat with her. So she's the founder of Faith and Mental Health Integrative Services, which is an organization that helps people who have OCD and related disorders.

integrate their faith traditions and their treatment. She's also worked as a chaplain and a consultant on interfaith programming for schools around the country. She's an endurance athlete tackling 50 ultra marathons for OCD and she's pursuing her doctorate at Vanderbilt. I was so excited about this conversation because when I met Leslie Shapiro, she was definitive.

to talk to uplifters and tell the story of uplifters, I had to talk to Reverend Katie O'Donnell. Katie, thank you for being here.

Katie (: 01:11

Thank you for having me. I am so humbled by that introduction and by Leslie recommending me as someone who uplifts me in my own journey and who has inspired me. So I'm so thankful to be here and really just thankful for you and your podcast and giddy over here as well to share this conversation with you.

Aransas Savas (: 01:32

There is nothing better than being admired by the people we admire. And we are stronger together. And today, the first thing I want to understand as we sort of ground ourselves in you and your work and your mission is to get a bit of a primer in obsessive compulsive disorder.

I know that's what OCD stands for. I know that it is a term that is misused a lot and misunderstood and probably bandied around a little carelessly. And so I was hoping you could give us a better understanding of what it really is and what it's like for people who experience it.

Katie (: 02:08

Yes.

Katie (: 02:16

Yeah, thank you. First of all, thank you just for asking the question and for folks listening. It's one of our favorite things as folks who work in this field and as advocates to do is to really answer what it is, because so often we hear OCD used as an adjective. We hear OCD used to describe a cute quirk or someone enjoying organization, and that's not what it is. It's a debilitating disorder, and it's not something that...

is remotely enjoyed by the person who's suffering. And OCD is really defined as the stabilitating disorder that has two components. It has the obsessive component as well as the compulsive component. And obsessions are defined by unwanted intrusive thoughts. And with OCD, those intrusive thoughts become really, really sticky where...

I like to say that everyone has intrusive thoughts, our brain produces lots and lots of content all the time, but with OCD, individuals get really, really stuck, particularly on the things that are the most important and significant to them. And it's really important to note that with those obsessions, they're ego-dysnotic. And what that means is they go against a person's true values. They go against who a person actually is.

So those obsessions, those intrusive thoughts, those what if statements, which is really how they come up, take what matters the most to someone and twist them around. So I hear parents often say, what if I'm a bad mom? What if I'm dangerous to my child? I hear individuals who their faith is really important to them say, well, what if I'm not faithful enough? What if I'm not engaging in religious practice appropriately? Or maybe someone who

cares deeply about other people. Well, what if I accidentally said something that offended someone? What if I hit someone with my car and I forgot and I just don't know? I mean, all of these different things. And then the compulsive component comes in to alleviate the distress that those kind of stuck intrusive thoughts are bringing up, to alleviate the fear, the guilt, the shame, the anxiety. And the compulsions can be things that are very physical. It might be checking something.

Katie (: 04:32

but it also could be very much mental. It could be ruminating. It could be neutralizing. It could be going back to replay scenarios. And the first time someone engages in a compulsion, it does decrease the anxiety, but over time it kind of stops working in the way that it initially did. And those compulsions only make the intrusive thoughts fueled. They only make them more stuck. They only make them stronger.

So those things, the more we engage in compulsions, the worse the disorder gets, and the more we get stuck in this cycle that we can't get out of.

Aransas Savas (: 05:07

because it's cyclical, I imagine it feels impossible to break out of. How did you get involved in this space, Katie?

Katie (: 05:14

Hmm.

Katie (: 05:24

Yeah, so I'm very open about the fact that I have OCD. I have navigated OCD really since before I can remember. Some of my earliest memories, even as a seven or eight year old child, had to do with going throughout the room and touching things in a particular order as my compulsion to alleviate my intrusive thoughts, which to let you all know how deep this goes, even as a kid, for me it was,

I was terrified that the earth was gonna get too close to the sun because I had heard about that in school and I thought everyone on the planet was gonna die and it was going to be my fault if I didn't do everything right. But if I do everything right, if I touch things right, if I do my homework right, then somehow I will save everyone. And as you can hear and what I'm talking about often these things are not logical individuals with OCD can recognize that, but they still can't shake that feeling.

that I need to do this thing just in case so that I can protect the things most important to me. So I grew up really with OCD, struggled with it throughout my life, but didn't know because most people are not diagnosed appropriately. And unfortunately it is an underdiagnosed disorder. On average, it takes someone 17 years to get an official diagnosis and effective treatment.

Aransas Savas (: 06:23

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 06:48

So I really didn't even know that what I experienced through much of my life was OCD until I was in my 20s.

Aransas Savas (: 06:55

What do people think it is for those first 17 years on average?

Katie (: 07:00

Yeah, it can show up. It can be so many different things. Someone can be misdiagnosed, of course, as having kind of generalized anxiety disorder. Other individuals can, if insight gets really low with OCD, gosh, it can be diagnosed as a host of different things. And really, as a result of that, a lot of times the effective treatments aren't used.

and that can be really, really challenging. And that was really my experience, depending on how it's presenting. Again, different diagnoses might come up, but for me, I was someone who was really high functioning. Folks have different experiences with this. My now spouse, because I got married a few weeks ago and that still feels weird to say, but yeah, thank you. So he has OCD and had a very different experience where he really...

Aransas Savas (: 07:50

Congrats!

Katie (: 07:57

lost everything. He ended up essentially homeless and not able to step forward. I am very thankful to say that he is with us in ways that we didn't think he would be 15 years ago. I didn't know him at that point, but ways that his family didn't think he would be. But for me, it was, I was very high functioning and I was internally just...

struggling. I hated myself. I hated my life. I was so looped into these intrusive thoughts. And kind of the fast forward to getting help was when I moved through seminary, I was pursuing becoming an ordained minister. Things started to get really bad for me where I wasn't sleeping because I was engaging in compulsions so frequently.

I was actually driving back to churches that I was interning at in the middle of the night to make sure doors were locked and candles were blown out and everyone was safe, spending upwards of probably 17 hours a day doing compulsions a lot in my head so that nobody knew. And I confided at the time in a mentor and said, I think I need to get treatment for obsessive compulsive disorder. I had self-diagnosed at that point and they said, no, don't do that.

Um, you are up and coming in ministry. It'll mess up your psych evaluations for ordination. Um, you need to keep this quiet. Um, so I did. Um, and yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 09:38

What a heartbreaking moment to finally have that realization and understand what you need and the courage to ask for support and to be told to go back in the closet to suck it up and to keep dealing with it yourself. And the thing that I'm so struck by in your experience of OCD is it sounds like so much of it is about...

Katie (: 09:52

Yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 10:06

being the dark side of an uplifter. So instead of caring for feeling the need to carry everyone else and that profound sense of responsibility for everyone else's well-being.

And then you were told, hey, go keep carrying it. And in fact, carry your own burden without getting any support to share it.

Katie (: 10:35

And that's very much how I felt and what happened. There was so much shame as a part of that. And shortly after that, I was ordained and I moved into an amazing job. It was my dream job in interfaith chaplaincy with students. So I became at age 25, the chaplain of the biggest private school in the continental US, working with 2,700.

amazing students from different faith backgrounds, as the religious studies chair and their chaplain doing grief and trauma work, but also interfaith education from pre-k to 12. And it was a high pressure job. I was walking in at 25 as the first female in the role, and my predecessor had been there for 25 years. And as I noted, OCD latches onto the things that are the most important to us.

Aransas Savas (: 11:31

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 11:33

quickly, that became really, really challenging for me. But I remembered what I had been told, and I kept it quiet. I suffered internally for a very long time, and ultimately, experiencing some really difficult traumas and losses with students. My OCD latched onto that and figured out ways to blame myself or to blame me for those things in ways that didn't make sense.

Aransas Savas (: 11:58

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 12:01

but in ways that I really hit rock bottom. But it was ultimately that, while I would not wanna go back and have those experiences again, that led me to the things that I'm doing now. And I hit a turning point where I finally sought treatment and where treatment very much saved my life. Exposure and response prevention is the gold standard treatment for OCD, where...

you engage in exposures where you're exposed to the things that you're fearful of and don't do those compulsive responses. And over time, your brain habituates, there's no cure for OCD, but it is so possible to live a really full, awesome, amazing life, not defined by OCD. And I hit that turning point for the first time, seeking treatment in secret at night while I was serving in this really public role.

And coming out of that, it was in line with some really difficult moments with students. I had lost a student that I was very close with to their own mental health struggles and it's still really hard for me years later. And I felt like I had not only a call, but an obligation for that student that I cared about so much to share about my own struggles.

because it was someone who hadn't opened up because they didn't feel comfortable in their faith community saying that they had a mental health struggle. So I started to come out and say, I'm the school chaplain of this huge space and I just sought treatment for OCD and it saved my life. Faith and mental health do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Aransas Savas (: 13:51

And the level of courage.

Aransas Savas (: 14:00

I can't fathom, Katie. I guess I don't fully understand the intersection between, I don't understand the faith component.

of this, right? Certainly, mental health is stigmatized in many arenas, but what is the potent connection here with faith?

Katie (: 14:31

Yeah. So I mean, a couple of things that the work I was doing with students, so working with students from really six different religious backgrounds, unfortunately, so many of them, regardless of their faith or religious or spiritual tradition were told by religious leaders or in their houses of worship that if they just prayed harder or if they just engaged in their spiritual practices more fully.

that they would get better or that it was sinful to be experiencing these mental health struggles or that they just weren't faithful enough. So of course, at that point students, you don't want to come forward and share what you're experiencing. And that was the really interesting shift in my story. I was terrified to your point when I started talking openly. I thought I would lose my job. I thought that no one would respect me as a minister or as a chaplain.

And it was the complete opposite of anything that I had expected. I started hearing from families saying, okay, we can actually tell you what's going on now. How can we talk to our rabbi, to our priest, to our imam? How can we seek treatment and still navigate faith? And it was a really beautiful transformation in ways that I had no idea that led me to starting to advocate beyond

kind of that private school setting and doing work with the International OCD Foundation. And I guess the second part of to answer your question, that's where I found out about a faith intersection that I had no idea about. When I started advocating, I learned about a subtype of OCD called religious scrupulosity, which I was not particularly familiar with. And that's where OCD, because it's latches onto what's important to you.

latches onto someone's faith. And the obsessions are around faith and the compulsions actually relate to hypervigilance of faith practices of prayers that aren't defined by faith but actually are a product of the disorder. And that became a transition of really my life, realizing that I could devote my life to helping folks in that space.

Aransas Savas (: 16:44

There's so much I want to talk about OCD, but I want to talk too about this coming out. Because I think there's something really universally important that we need to continue to reinforce, which is that so much of what we hold becomes shame and secret and intensifies as a result. But that difficult moment of coming out and sharing is often what

Katie (: 16:51

Yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 17:13

both eases the weight on us and gives purpose and light to what we have been experiencing in our own private suffering.

Katie (: 17:26

resonate with that so deeply. And I often talk about this idea that there had been so, so much brokenness in my experience with OCD. And yet, I truly believe on so many levels that we can find beauty in the midst of brokenness. And that when I started sharing my story, the pieces that OCD had left in chatters,

started going back together in ways to create this really beautiful mosaic in ways that I never could have possibly imagined. And it was this really neat beginning of turning pain into purpose, turning mess into message. All of these things of, of course, wouldn't wanna go back and have those experiences again. I think we can hold all of the grief and pain around that. And also,

have so much joy and purpose in seeing, how sharing and helping others and using our struggles to make a difference for other people on the journey, can just bring so much joy and so much life and can be so uplifting.

Aransas Savas (: 18:34

I suspect it's especially true with OCD because I imagine you were praised and successful and high performing for the exact qualities that had become maladaptive and were causing your suffering.

Katie (: 19:00

Yeah, I mean, so it's a both and, there were definitely areas that OCD, because I was even in my job ruminating 24 seven, it's kind of like I was living these two lives where there were ways that I think it probably impacted performance, even though folks didn't know that because I was high enough performing in other areas that I kind of brought that up. But I do think there were some levels of...

Aransas Savas (: 19:22

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 19:28

there were some areas where folks really didn't know that some of the care that I was offering or spaces that I was checking in or the hypervigilance that was happening in part related to OCD. So every time someone said, I'm so glad that you caught this particular thing or you paid particular attention to this, that kind of reinforced that for me, even if it was really maladaptive in my own life. And similarly, from a moral perspective,

core OCD fear is what if I'm a bad person? What if I've caused harm wanting to protect everyone? So every time someone came up and said, oh Chaplain Kay, you are the moral center of this school. we are so thankful for your morality. My, it's like, woo. Yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 20:11

Mmm.

Aransas Savas (: 20:22

How complex to parse out in your own mind. And where are you now with your experience of OCD? What helps you both channel the strengths that came with this unique perspective on life and the challenges that have come with this unique perspective?

Katie (: 20:23

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Katie (: 20:37

Hmm.

Katie (: 20:46

Yeah, no, absolutely. So it's, I guess there's been a big transition for me since I started doing this work full time. And so about a year and a half ago, I got into a space where I was still doing my school chaplaincy role, but I started getting calls from clinicians to help with

religious scrupulosity cases, things where OCD had latched on to someone's faith. And as a part of that, there was this, I had taught comparative religions for a long time in interfaith literacy, and there was really a need for this spiritual understanding alongside the clinical understanding. So my role became actually at night after I was doing chaplain works, working on cases.

Aransas Savas (: 21:35

Hmm.

Katie (: 21:39

around Islam or around Hinduism or Judaism to help separate, well, what is faith and what's OCD? How can we develop culturally responsive exposures? And I realized that there actually was a much bigger need for that than me doing that at night after my chaplain role during the day. So I made this huge leap and I think of it very much as a leap of faith because it was terrifying. There was no clear path forward.

kind of this work didn't exist on the spiritual side. I left a job that I loved so much and I think folks were very surprised when I wrote a letter that I was leaving, because most folks are there for a very long time, and shifted into starting my own organization focused on faith and OCD, where my full-time work now is working with clinicians, working on OCD cases, working with sufferers, working with families, doing trainings.

to help kind of navigate this intersection between faith and OCD. And in my own life, it has been the most profound thing that I have ever done, because I feel like every single day, I get to turn my own pain into purpose. I get to share with people as both a chaplain, but also as someone with lived experience who has been there. And I will say,

In my own recovery, there have been hard aspects of that because of course, this is so important to me. And also it has given me so much motivation where every day I get to say, you know what? I am willing to risk all of the scary stuff that OCD is telling me for a chance at doing something so meaningful with my life to help people.

Aransas Savas (: 23:05

Mm-hmm.

Aransas Savas (: 23:22

Such an important balance. I interviewed a woman last week who hosts a podcast about running. It is an indigenous focused podcast and it was a dream come true for her and she loved the work for the first year, but she was completely exhausted and she came to hate running.

because this thing that had been so therapeutic had become commoditized, and now it was in service of other people's well-being and needs. And so in your story, I hear the potential for that.

I have no other word for it, that commoditization of our passions to happen.

Katie (: 24:01

Yeah. Well, and it's funny, as you talk about that, I really, I was a collegiate runner and very much had that happen with my running journey. No.

Aransas Savas (: 24:09

Mm.

Aransas Savas (: 24:12

You're such an achiever, right? I'm sure OCD isn't all oriented to achievers, but not uncommon amongst achievers.

Katie (: 24:24

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, for me, actually, there's a lot of people, even that OCD and athletic performance, where OCD definitely does not help it, it hinders athletic performance, but at the same time, there are so many high achievers who navigate OCD and there's all of these dynamics, but I relate so much to even the running piece for me eventually becoming like, okay, this feels like a job. And, um, has been a shift for me in my own running journey, but

Aransas Savas (: 24:37

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 24:52

But with this and with the work that I do now, it's so interesting. It's so different from anything that I've done. And I think there are challenges with this too, but it feels like such a passion. It is something so personal and dear to my heart that I'm really making an effort to, yes, of course there are times that there are things that feel like work, but I try every day as much as I can to come back to.

why this uplifts me in light of this podcast, why this uplifts others and why, I think for the first time in forever in a role, I am being authentically myself. I'm not being the person that I think people wanna see as a chaplain or as a minister. I am being...

Katie, who shows up wearing pink earrings and is super inclusive and loves all faith traditions and advocates for OCD. And I think for me, that's so helpful in my own recovery and self-compassion journey, but it also makes the work just so joyful, even when it's really challenging.

Aransas Savas (: 26:08

I find that everything takes so much less energy when it's aligned and it's true.

Aransas Savas (: 26:19

And what makes things exhausting is trying to paint the picture that we imagine someone else wants and then live into that picture in some way that makes it look like truth.

Katie (: 26:19

Absolutely.

Aransas Savas (: 26:34

So I asked you before we started recording what you hoped people would take from your story. And you said, you are amazing, awesome. You are enough just the way you are and your beautiful uniqueness makes the world a better place. What does that mean to you and why is that what you hope people will carry from this story?

Katie (: 27:01

I think I spent so long feeling like I wasn't enough in being just who I was because of OCD and for so many different other aspects of my story, I know even that we haven't tackled today. I think comparing myself to other people, wanting to be someone who didn't have these struggles, that wanted to be someone who didn't have these challenges and...

I forgot to look in the mirror and be really thankful for the person that I was created to be who loves pink and is quirky and is an ultra marathon runner and also loves interfaith and ministry and all of those things and who happens to have OCD but isn't defined by that OCD who is able to create something beautiful out of experiences. And I see the it's still a journey for me each and every day, but I see where I've gone with that.

I see the clients that I work with that are in that same space and it breaks my heart when I see the most amazing people in the world. Literally, I think I work with just the most amazing humans, say they're not enough or I wish I was like this person. And I want everybody listening really to know, I mean, I've been there, I know so many folks I work with have been there and whoever you are, you are enough just the way that you are with your awesome uniqueness.

And I think in my recovery, I've learned that the most beautiful thing we can do is to foster that within ourselves, to give others space to foster that within them, and to recognize that the world is a more beautiful place just by each of us being us.

Aransas Savas (: 28:44

Yeah, especially if we can really be us. And that I think is what your story shows us that you were doing great work. You were having an impact while in hiding, while carrying all of this pain. And it is clear from the description of joy and purpose and authentic

Katie (: 28:59

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 29:13

integrity that you are living now, that it's a whole freaking lot more impactful and fun and rewarding and sustainable when it's just you. And I say just you because it's just you.

Katie (: 29:24

Okay.

Katie (: 29:27

Absolutely.

Katie (: 29:34

It's so true. And I think folks in all sorts of fields have this feeling and this experience, but it really was. I mean, for a long time, I felt like, okay, I'm professional chaplain, need to wear my clergy collar and wear all black and need to make sure that I'm doing all the things. And in my ministry now,, I'm an ultra marathon runner again, who wears pink cupcake earrings. And I hear from folks every day,, that is-

that gives them permission to be their authentic selves too. And I think the more that each of us live into who we are, we give more and more people permission to do that in their own lives. And it is a beautiful, beautiful trend.

Aransas Savas (: 30:15

Oh, it is beautiful. And I have felt it in my own life. I was in a career where I felt like I had a tremendous responsibility to the brand to be a good advocate for them and to be what they needed me to be. And that was my responsibility and I was good at that.

And I really was not having any fun. And I really was not bringing any of my unique value to the world because I didn't understand that would have honestly made me more impactful even there. But I had to leave there to find a safe space to just let my weird, wonderful self be true.

And now I get to enjoy it a lot more too.

Katie (: 31:08

Well, and your weird, wonderful self is amazing. And I can feel that even through this conversation where it's really special. And it's, I mean, exactly what I was saying. I mean, it's being practiced here, even in being, I'll be honest, in your presence and you just being you, I feel more like I can be me. And I think it's such a neat change that can happen in the world.

Aransas Savas (: 31:11

Thanks!

Aransas Savas (: 31:31

Yes, yes, yes. And I do think that chain, it happens one link at a time. So let's talk about your reading, Katie. 50 ultras?

Katie (: 31:35

Absolutely.

Yes!

Aransas Savas (: 31:44

Okay.

Katie (: 31:46

Yeah, so I will admit this is kind of a bananas time in my life in the best possible ways. I got married a couple weeks ago. I'm in the last three months of my doctorate. I'm running 50 ultras for OCD. it's a lot of stuff right now, but it is all so awesome and so beautiful and so much of it.

all the things kind of come back to this 50 ultras component. And the reason why the core of everything that I do in my advocacy and my work around faith and OCD relates to this kind of phrase I've coined of running towards your values. And it's something that comes out of acceptance and commitment therapy where we move toward our values despite.

challenges that are faced or how we're feeling. We keep moving toward the things that are the most important to us. And as a runner, I found a lot of purpose in, well, I'm not just gonna move towards my values, I'm gonna run full speed ahead toward my values. And I always say people can do that in different ways. We can write, we can paint, we can dance toward our values using those things that we're really passionate about. But for me, running has always been a core of my life. I was...

Collegiate runner, I was a competitive triathlete and went through a lot of challenges outside of OCD related to divorce and different aspects of life that kind of turned my world upside down at the start of the pandemic. And ultra running became actually a new thing for me as a part of that. I shifted from this quote unquote competitive running that I had done forever to wanting to go back to doing something for me.

wanting to go out and run in the woods for really long periods of time. Um, and it was really out there that I started thinking about what does it mean in the midst of everything that's going on to keep running toward my values, running toward the things that are meaningful to me. Um, so 50 ultras and 50 states for OCD took shape because running toward my values meant not just about me, but also about, about other people. So, um, paired with.

Katie (: 34:01

an organization, NoCD, that does telehealth treatment for OCD in amazing ways to fund essentially treatment for one individual in each state seeking OCD treatment alongside this effort. So I have kind of a fundraising component piece with this too.

Aransas Savas (: 34:21

And what does running do for you personally, Katie?

Katie (: 34:27

It is running for me. It connects me with something beyond myself and it is really the one place where things kind of get quiet for me and I can become centered again. My graduate work the first time around actually was on looking at running and endurance athletics as a spiritual practice and that's very much

Aransas Savas (: 34:42

Mm.

Katie (: 34:55

what it is for me. I can go out and feel incredibly stressed and have all sorts of intrusive thoughts bouncing around. And there's something so mindful about feeling the breeze and hearing my feet hit the pavement and recognizing that I can literally run toward the things that are the most meaningful to me, even on the most difficult day.

Aransas Savas (: 35:17

Katie (: 35:55

I was so stuck in my head, I was so stuck around intrusive thoughts, and so worried that I was a bad person that I actually struggled to physically feel things or emotionally feel things for a really long time.

Aransas Savas (: 36:23

thoughts were distracting from the feeling?

Katie (: 36:27

sometimes our brain I think is trying to protect us in really unhealthy ways. So I went through really traumatic events and events around grief that I had trouble feeling it because I was so worried. Well, what if I'm a bad person and what if all of this stuff is true that I wasn't able to actually focus and feel what was going on?

Aransas Savas (: 36:33

Huh, uh huh.

Katie (: 36:51

A lot of people with OCD have that experience and coming out of that, I actually think it was really, really scary for me to start intensely feeling emotions that were in the present, to start feeling grief, to start feeling anger, to even start to feel joy. And the secondary component with that was when OCD made me feel like a bad person, I didn't think I was worthy of experiencing joy.

So one of my biggest exposures was actually giving myself permission to go out and do things that were fun and not criticize myself if I found little moments of joy. It's why I have pink kind of everywhere and I wear pink. Pink was my exposure color. I used to love pink as a kid, stopped wearing it because I thought I didn't deserve it and looped back to this is an exposure for me every day to say, yeah, I am gonna give myself permission to feel that joy.

But now I tell folks that experiencing emotions, whether you have OCD or not, it's a gift and it's not something to push away that every single emotion is absolutely valid and you can give yourself permission to feel every single one of those things.

Aransas Savas (: 38:06

Was there a certain, was Joy the one that was scariest for you?

Katie (: 38:12

10,000%. It felt like there was this element of one, I don't deserve this. I need to prove that I'm a good enough person in order to deserve this. And two, it felt irresponsible. It felt like I was letting my guard down. Well, if I'm not in protection mode of protecting the entire world and let myself have fun, something horrible could happen and it could be my fault. So it was a big exposure.

Aransas Savas (: 38:36

Mm-hmm.

Katie (: 38:41

a really, really worthwhile exposure.

Aransas Savas (: 38:43

Yeah, and I think I ask that because I've done my own emotional awareness work. And for me, feeling angry was really scary. Because the examples I'd seen of anger were really unhealthy. And

they were so terrifying for me that I wanted nothing to do with anger. And so if anything made me angry at another person, I would just project it back on myself and take it on as guilt for my responsibility for other people's anger or bad behavior. And that was easier to deal with than just saying, I'm angry because what might happen if a person gets angry. And

Katie (: 39:28

Oh

Aransas Savas (: 39:30

I share that because I think we probably all have some emotions that are difficult for us. And the therapist I worked with said there's only four basic emotions, mad, glad, sad, and scared. And I was totally fine with scared. I was like, oh yeah, I'm scared. And I'm great with glad. Okay, with sad.

Katie (: 39:47

Yeah, scared feels safe.

I'm sorry.

Aransas Savas (: 40:00

but mad was really scary for me. But what it did for me to have just those four basic emotions is it forced me to characterize what anger actually did look like for me. Because what it was for me was not what I thought it was. Because I was so disconnected from it, I didn't even know what my version of it looked like. But I could tell these things weren't sad or scared or glad.

Katie (: 40:30

I'm so glad you're highlighting that, because that's a piece. I think anger can be really, really scary. And in the OCD context, I actually hear this from folks a lot, because it's when someone's worried, a common core fear is what if I'm a bad person? What if I'm dangerous? And it's like, well, what if I get mad? What if I just lose it? And I don't, who knows? what could possibly happen?, what if you just...

give yourself permission to feel anger. We can give ourselves that permission, but it's really hard. It is so hard.

Aransas Savas (: 41:01

Be mad. Yeah.

Aransas Savas (: 41:08

especially if we've never practiced that. And so it's interesting to me because I think the treatment for OCD is not that different than it is for a lot of mental illnesses. So exposure seems core to the treatment of so many different diseases.

Katie (: 41:12

Yeah.

Katie (: 41:19

Mm-mm. No. Mm-mm.

Katie (: 41:31

Yeah, it's so interesting because, and of course there's nuances and hierarchies and different things with ERP, but I think it is so core, like you said, to so many things. I always talk about living the ERP lifestyle for even folks who don't have, oh, exposure and response prevention. So that's that OCD, Gold Standard Treatment. But I even, we had a big virtual conference recently for the International OCD Foundation and

Aransas Savas (: 41:36

Yes, absolutely.

Aransas Savas (: 41:45

What does ERP stand for? Got it, thank you.

Katie (: 41:58

I was getting all of these messages yesterday from clinicians who don't have OCD, who were like, that talk was a massive exposure for me. I had to lean into all of the things. I'm using my response prevention tools. It is so applicable in so many areas.

Aransas Savas (: 42:11

Yeah, yeah. And facing these things diffuses them. And ultimately, I think it's the exact same thing we're talking about with our personal stories, that they become truer by expressing them.

Katie (: 42:19

Yeah!

Katie (: 42:35

And I love that you give people space to express those things in a really beautiful way, a really beautiful way.

Aransas Savas (: 42:39

Where should people look for you, especially those who may be listening to this and saying,

Katie (: 43:59

Yeah.

Yeah, well, first of all, if you're listening to this and hearing that, I want you to hear you are not alone. You are not broken. There is so, so much hope. We have an amazing community of folks. You can absolutely reach out to me and I would be glad to put you in touch with resources with the International OCD Foundation. We have a great resource directory of providers as well. But the best place...

probably to find me is on Instagram at RevKrunsBeyondOCD. And you can also email me at katie.odun.gmail.com. Sometimes I take a while to get back to stuff as it comes in with different OCD kind of requests and referrals, but I will always get back if you are looking for someone to treat in your area. If you're just looking to get more information, I want you to know that you are so not alone and that regardless of what OCD

easy to find. Aransas Savas (: 46:01

How do you take care of you while you're busy taking care of everyone else?

Katie (: 46:18

is a great question and one that I probably needed to hear today. So thank you. it's something that I really am working on, offering myself the same love, care and compassion that I would offer to someone else. But it's really, really hard. running is a huge component of that. But I'm also really working on giving myself space and paying attention to the language that I use toward myself. I often catch myself even presenting at a conference this weekend, finishing and being like, oh,, why did I say that thing? I sounded, you know, whatever. And I really, as...

a practice of self-care, try to catch myself on that, not in a way that's mean or that's harsh but in a way of, oh, is there a different way that we might say this? I'm very big on setting compassionate commitments, All the support groups I lead, I don't like to do goals because I think we either check off goals or are really mean to ourselves for not accomplishing those goals.

But I like compassionate commitments. And that's an aspect of self-care for me too, where we set intentions of how we can be nicer to the world and kinder to ourself. And we try to step toward those things as best we can while also being compassionate if we don't do those things perfectly.

Aransas Savas (: 48:00

Yes, and I think we get to a place of understanding where we hear that message and we know that it's not appropriate to say the mean things out loud about ourselves so then we just say them inside. So I will just add that when we're saying, oh, you could have done better or why didn't you shine as brightly as you could today, if we're saying it in our heads, it has just as much effect if we're saying it out loud.

Katie (: 48:14

Hahaha

Aransas Savas (: 48:31

Yeah, we hear our own voice more than any other, so let's make it as kind as possible.

Katie (: 48:39

Absolutely. I love, I make, again, we'll admit I have trouble doing this in my own life, but I encourage my clients and who often will probably roll their eyes at me for having them do this, but I'll have them write out things that they love about themselves or that they're proud of and I'll have them put their hand on their heart and say, I am so proud that I'm good at this. I am so proud that I did this well this week. And yes! Oh, goodness.

Aransas Savas (: 49:01

Oh, will you do that with me right now? What are you some, what's something that you're proud of? Hand to heart, baby.

Katie (: 49:11

Oh my goodness, again, this is so much harder to do in my own life. Okay. Um, okay. Let's see. I am so proud of the steps forward that I have taken these last few years with OCD and turning my pain into purpose and also giving myself permission to experience joy.

Aransas Savas (: 49:13

I know, I know, that's what we're gonna do it, both of us.

Thanks for watching!

Aransas Savas (: 49:37

I'm proud of you too.

Katie (: 49:39

Thank you. And what are you proud of?

Aransas Savas (: 49:41

I am so proud that I finally let myself do the things I really wanted to do and that I knew I was good at and I was born to do and that I let myself admit that I liked it and that I wanted it and that I was good at it instead of just trying to hide it and be quiet about it and then wonder why nobody else noticed.

Katie (: 50:13

good at it. You are amazing.

Aransas Savas (: 50:13

Thanks. Oh, Katie, I'm so glad to know you now. I'm so grateful we were connected.

Katie (: 50:22

I'm glad to know. Yes, I hope this friendship continues beyond the podcast because this has been so lovely. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Aransas Savas (: 50:29

Me too. You're so special. Uplifters, oh, let us all hear every word of this. As Katie said, if you are somebody who is struggling with OCD or wants to learn more about it, there are so many resources to support you and there is so much hope.

If you are somebody, who identifies as a maladaptive perfectionist and simply has unrealistic expectations of yourself, there is so much to carry here. And if you are somebody who is just a little hard on yourself and maybe a little tougher than you are on everyone else you love,

May you hear in this reminder to speak to yourself with love, to feel all the feelings, and to tell your story.

Aransas Savas (: 51:26

People need you. Wonderful you, but they can't know you unless you tell your story. Thank you, Katie.

Katie (: 51:36

Thank you.