What It Really Takes to Support Women Leaders with Laura Kavanagh, the first woman FDNY Commissioner in its 157-year history

TUP EP 097

Laura Kavanaugh: [: 00:00:00

Nomination: It brings me great joy to nominate Laura Kavanaugh. She was the 34th fire commissioner of the fire department in the city of New York. But even more so, she's smart and creative and has learned to be an [00:00:30] excellent leader and to be authentic and to walk with integrity. She's somebody that I can talk to for hours and leave thinking new thoughts and learning new things and I'm just so grateful that I get to have her in my life and I'm delighted to [00:00:45] share her with the rest of you.

York City Fire Commissioner [: 00:01:00

When we started dreaming up the Uplifters podcast, we made a short list of 10 women that would be most excited to talk to. [00:01:30] I'm not even going to tell you what Laura and I talk about in this episode because it was so much better than I even imagined and I don't want to use up a single second of your attention just chattering at you when you could be hearing directly from Laura herself.

[: 00:01:45

And she's a person who's surrounded by a lot [00:02:15] of amazing people. So I hope it felt meaningful to you to be seen in that way. It made me even more excited to talk to you, that's for sure.

at emergency contact person, [: 00:02:30

When you add [00:02:45] Jen, her wife, the trained therapist, they're quite the team. I always tell them they can solve any problem, spiritual, psychological. When I asked you who you would nominate, it

Aransas Savas: was a problem solver.

naugh: Yep. My go to network [: 00:03:00

Aransas Savas: talk to. I think we don't talk enough about the importance of Those people in our lives, but also a belief that problems can be

Laura Kavanaugh: solved.

hink a belief you don't have [: 00:03:15

One thing I can tell you is they always rely on their network. That's a very strong part of what they do. So the idea that you don't have to fix it all yourself, that to call someone else and ask for their guidance is as much fixing it as it is [00:03:45] to take out a hammer and nail and do it yourself.

Aransas Savas: That's such an interesting point, because I don't think of that as a gendered issue.

Because as women, we are more community oriented,

Laura Kavanaugh: if [: 00:04:00

It's also a very traditional place. So gender is still very traditionally [00:04:30] considered in a place like that. It doesn't actually just give you a view of being a woman there. It gives you a view of what an all male world is like, because it is all men. There are things I've learned from them. about how they work.

about it in other contexts, [: 00:04:45

And what am I going to do? Or it's keeping me awake at night. I'm like sitting with it just by myself. There is no [00:05:15] point in which I've put it out to my network and not found someone who not only can solve the problem, but Almost made it easy. Like, I wondered why did that keep me awake for three nights or why did I spend two hours on Google trying to fix it?

sson learned. There's always [: 00:05:30

Aransas Savas: Yeah, and we don't have to do anything alone.

ork together. They don't go. [: 00:05:45

That's, you know, not the way they work. So they've

Aransas Savas: taught me a

Laura Kavanaugh: lot.

you join the fire department?: 2014

Laura Kavanaugh: I know. Hard

Aransas Savas: to imagine. So really, probably at the very beginning of your adult life.

Laura Kavanaugh: I had had a career for about 10 years in campaigns and elections before that.

o you could say my career in [: 00:06:15

And I really wanted, you know, not only too mean, but there's something exciting about electing someone you care about. When you're a young person and seeing them bring change, but what can happen when you do that [00:06:45] over and over is you think, do I really know how to enact that change? Because when you're campaigning, you're only talking about it.

ow we get the things we want [: 00:07:00

I ended up working for Bill de Blasio on his, at that time, seventh place mayoral campaign, and was [00:07:15] interviewing for jobs in the Bloomberg administration concurrently. And he knew that. I had told him that government was what was next for me, and obviously that turned out to to work out very well, uh, because he became mayor and he knew about my desire to, you know, not [00:07:30] stay on the campaign side and to go into government.

It's something when I was in [: 00:07:45

So like figuring out why something is wrong and how to fix it was sort of my. Forte, and in particular, helping to get, [00:08:00] you know, non traditional voices into public life was already where I had a passion. But when he said the fire department, you know, I was stunned, right? I was like, I'm not, not a firefighter and I don't come from a family of firefighters.

how can I help? But then he [: 00:08:15

Aransas Savas: Wow. And so what role did you enter the force in?

of it was really figure out [: 00:08:45

It was very voluminous and there were a lot of changes required. And so my first job was [00:09:00] really just to figure out. Why haven't these changes been effective in the past that the department had tried many times had sued and been sued and lost many times with little effect on either the process of hiring candidates or the demographics of the department.[00:09:15]

rts of you were most excited [: 00:09:30

I think I'm very good at problem solving and I, [00:09:45] I like the idea of a problem that hasn't been solved before and approaching it. And I like new challenges, experiences as much as the fire department was unexpected to me. It didn't seem like a bad idea. It sounded like a wonderful one. The brand is good. I knew what the FDNY did.

And so [: 00:10:00

And I don't think you can ever really have a bad brand. Bad time if you work at a place that does something good, whereas you can actually have a good job at a place that does something you don't feel good about it and be pretty miserable. So I felt both [00:10:30] interested and intrigued and and sort of honored to be sent there.

nk you Seemed interesting to [: 00:10:45

You show up in like [00:11:00] a district You've never lived before, and you need to say to someone, here's what people care about, which means you need to go talk to people what they care about. I need to learn their culture, and that was interesting to me too. It was to go learn a new place. The fire department's about [00:11:15] as different as you could get from City Hall.

ted to stay, too. As you can [: 00:11:30

What was my experience like? It was eye opening because it really is a [00:11:45] different place with a whole different set of norms and values and people, and I found that Wonderful. I just, you know, found like it really opened up my world to a lot of people, you know, many of whom are still friends and just even a way of [00:12:00] thinking about life.

There's a phrase that one of [: 00:12:15

And it sounds maybe like a sort of simple thing, or maybe even an obvious thing, but when you start to look around in life, you realize how much [00:12:30] you and the people around you, when you're on the fence, actually tend to stay home. You know, you think, oh, I'm too busy or I need, I need time alone. And you know, my opinion is every time I've ever pushed myself to show up, whatever that meant, right.

And do something a [: 00:12:45

But I'd also say just say it was a great experience. It was very complicated, as you can imagine. I don't want to hide that. You know, being a woman there is very challenging in some expected ways and some not expected ways, but it wasn't a bad [00:13:15] one. It's not one I regret. It was just a, a challenge every day.

ill and you're still hot and [: 00:13:30

You have often gone the wrong way and there's a river in the way you have to turn, turn back. And you're often just, you know, Honestly, I'm like more bloody and [00:13:45] tired by the time you get to the top. You've been Scratched and bruised and taken you twice as long. So I think that's maybe how I would describe It's just maybe being a first there being a new type of person isn't good or bad.

It's Just a wholly [: 00:14:00

Aransas Savas: Yeah. And it sounds like it perhaps went way beyond gender in terms of that newness, that maybe this was a different mindset and approach to leadership there.

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah. I was [: 00:14:15

And I think the data shows we do is we tend to put First in charge of organizations when they're in crisis, and especially in this case, in crisis around the topic of race and gender, right? [00:14:30] They were being sued by the Bush Department of Justice. So this was not a singular lawsuit. This was a very extensive, uh, federal lawsuit from the Bush administration that had been going on for many, many years.

is a somewhat typical thing [: 00:14:45

And there's pieces of that, that where gender informs them, but that's not what it's all about, right? People would have resistance to something [00:15:15] new happening in an agency where they've worked for a long time. People would have resistance to a disruptor. I think that gender can further complicate that when you look and sound different, but it's there.

rage of me, is the fact that [: 00:15:30

But if [00:16:00] you look at my Counterparts who are also not firefighters. It's almost never mentioned. Um, and it's certainly not mentioned in the second line. It's not, oh, here's commissioner. So, and so he was never a firefighter, but here's all the things he did, but with me, it is. And so that's, you know, those are the [00:16:15] complicated ways in which gender certainly plays a role, but it's, it's not what it's all about.

ob for a really long time to [: 00:16:30

That's what I wanted. I like solving hard problems. Like I said, I don't want to be put in charge of something and [00:16:45] be told to just keep doing the same thing. But I also acknowledge that is a much harder task. Because you yourself are also new, you're a new messenger, people are already kind of gonna have questions about you or even question what you say.

u know, which one is better, [: 00:17:00

That's hard. I don't know the answer. That's

Aransas Savas: such a good question. It doesn't set a trailblazer up for success and yet in some ways it's what's necessary.

hope that bringing in a new [: 00:17:30

Not everyone in those categories is the same and we actually only use them because they're the only obvious measure of figuring out [00:17:45] whether or not we're bringing a new experience into a place. But really what we're trying to do irrespective of race and gender is bring new opinions and experiences into a place that is what the data shows.

ncluding businesses from the [: 00:18:00

And so it becomes a very complicated, you know, question [00:18:15] of what are we asking people to do when we ask them to be a first? Is it just to check the box? Is it to be different? How do we support them if we know that's the case, that they're going to be very different and people are going to have a reaction to that?

you know if I ever get to a [: 00:18:30

And I think [00:19:00] that, you know, You know, I would say that in politics and in business and in any circle where we are thinking about why we want more women, just more women would help. Then you don't have to think about whether or not, you know, it's this model or that model, or is it this one [00:19:15] woman who can finally make it and all of our hopes ride on her?

it easier. Um, there's less [: 00:19:30

I mean, instead, we often only have one woman and we're asking her to do it all. To be everything. That's a lot. For anyone. I mean, no one can survive a Petri dish, right? We're all humans. And I think that's often [00:20:00] where we really hit a wall is it's like, why was this one woman not perfect? It's like, well, I know there are no perfect male leaders either.

ch higher. Yeah. And I think [: 00:20:15

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah.

on? On whichever side of the [: 00:20:30

And I think stories like yours, however challenging that was. [00:20:45] can give some measure of hope to all women in all domains.

ery real grief that they may [: 00:21:00

Because in the cycle, for both parties, you know, the woman who seemed, if nothing else, very prepared did not make it. I hear real grief, very specifically from my mom, but for her friends in [00:21:15] general, is that maybe, like, that was it. Um, especially because the idea that people will now maybe be afraid to run women But they never never see that in their lifetime.

ually only in the sense that [: 00:21:30

So as [00:21:45] a campaign person i'd say that actually is the It's not a smart campaign strategy, but it is something that happens out of fear to people, and I do understand that. So I'm thinking of it that way, and to your point, as I've said to a lot of people, part of the problem is in spaces that are [00:22:00] so male, which the presidency is as well, right?

ell, that wasn't, why did we [: 00:22:15

So, it does feel impossible until it's not, which is, I think, why you have to keep trying.

es is just to create a sense [: 00:22:45

Laura Kavanaugh: Agreed. I don't think you can get anything done that is really hard or really new without hope because if, you know, if you think about it, forget sort of even the bigger idea of [00:23:00] hope, you actually just have to believe something that isn't currently true.

without that level of hope, [: 00:23:15

You do have to be, I always have to say, you have to be wildly optimistic to want to change things. Because [00:23:30] everything that you want to change, someone has tried to change and failed a hundred times before my

Aransas Savas: dear friend, Kara and I were talking about this on Friday, that the quality in ourselves that we're most grateful for is our delusional optimism.

say that to people. I think [: 00:23:45

Same thing with curiosity, which I think goes hand in hand with optimism actually, which is being rather than turned off or sort of depressed about it, is being [00:24:15] curious why something didn't work or being curious why someone is resistant to it is really important for trying to get something new accomplished.

uriosity is counter to fear. [: 00:24:30

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah. Agreed. Very much so. It's also a counter to, um, we might call it polarization, but I would call it something different because it has such a political connotation. It's a counter to the idea that you are always on opposite [00:24:45] teams. In the fire department, certainly a lot of people from the time I came in onwards had a lot of skepticism about me because I was bringing something that was not popular.

the places where I won over [: 00:25:00

And I [00:25:15] think if instead I approached them as, well, I'm mad at you that you don't agree with me and we're on opposite teams and now we're fighting, I would actually never have learned where there were places for agreement. I needed to know what their real worries were in order [00:25:30] to address them, some of which could be addressed and, you know, some couldn't.

t. I find often when you dig [: 00:25:45

Yes. A thousand times. Yes.

as Savas: I think maybe the, [: 00:26:00

Laura Kavanaugh: People are kind of harder to reach because a lot of that animosity is online. So it's [00:26:15] hard to actually get to know the person you're having this fight with.

tions. And one of the things [: 00:26:30

But one of the core tenants of people who look at disinformation is the idea that [00:26:45] there is an unmet fear that people need answered. And if they are not given a real answer, they will go for disinformation. They'll go for a conspiracy theory. And I've found that to be actually extraordinarily true in the fire department that traffic's in quite [00:27:00] a bit of not helpful gossip.

eal concern, a valid concern [: 00:27:15

Aransas Savas: Yeah, it also, I think going back to something you said about when you entered the role, which maybe sounded a bit like, were we asking the right question about how to address this problem at this time? And I [00:27:45] think part of where we misunderstand the power of diversity, right, is we bring in new voices and there's this belief that old voices will be silenced.

g the new voices and the old [: 00:28:00

Laura Kavanaugh: and thoughtful ways. Exactly. Scarcity is one of the biggest drivers or a sense that scarcity may come, that there will be fewer of these jobs available. There [00:28:15] are some of the last few very good union jobs in this country.

ng and always was a very big [: 00:28:30

You [00:29:00] know, it's a very dangerous job and you need the people who've been doing it for decades. That's a very hard thing to combat, though. People often see change as a scarcity problem that they will be eliminated or the thing that they love. will be eliminated or either much harder to access [00:29:15] from them.

And that's, that is what creates disinformation, 100%. Even in an organization, let alone kind of society wide, you have to, from the outset, really find out what those fears are and address them.

esting time for diversity in [: 00:29:30

and change. And then just over the past few weeks, I feel like every week there's another big story about a major retailer or a large company [00:29:45] rolling back all of those initiatives.

ll it sort of like being the [: 00:30:00

I mean, the fire department is a very traditional and conservative place. And so you're often trying to negotiate, not just communication, but like trying to [00:30:15] match the needs of one to the other. And this is a case where, you know, the city of New York, the justice department brought this case around diversity and believed in it.

, That is why I went back to [: 00:30:30

mean the best in trying to get there. You will come across people who don't mean the best, but they're kind of obvious and they're actually few and far between. So when you can sort that out and talk to the people who really care and have concerns, I think you can do [00:31:30] a lot. The other thing I'd say, and I think this is starting to get well covered is there's a Distinct difference between D.

tain way that is just simply [: 00:31:45

Mhm. Would offend [00:32:00] anyone, and nobody wants to see their fellow human go through. And you know, the last thing I would say is we always need to remember when we're looking at organizations or structures of power, the power is what is at hand. And we've seen that there's a fairly [00:32:15] extensive coverage of the Michigan DEI programs and their failure to create any diversity at the University of Michigan.

it tries to sort out is the [: 00:32:30

And I've seen that happen in my organization as well, so I think we just have to be more honest with ourselves about how power works and then if you're going to give millions of [00:33:00] dollars and thousands of jobs into a program, no matter how well meaning that program is, it will take on a life of its own.

e to just pause for a second [: 00:33:15

Nomination: Yeah.

Laura Kavanaugh: Many [: 00:33:30

Yeah.

ort the person in that role. [: 00:34:00

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah.

Aransas Savas: So looking back, what types of support do you believe are most important to empower success?

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, I think it's many things. I think that's a really great point.

their names, but one of the [: 00:34:15

You know, it tends to be people on the left who support making these trailblazing positions, but we work in spaces that are very conservative. And so we actually find that our liberal counterparts are very loathe [00:35:00] to even really touch our world, or even to hear what it's really like. It's almost an experience.

nment life, I want to try to [: 00:35:15

So trying to change that, because I do believe the more women we put in leadership in every realm, the better we will be as a society. Faster. We will see many class ceilings get [00:35:45] broken. So I think that's super important and a very good point. I think what I would say if I was writing sort of a playbook for how whether it's a board of directors, a CEO, an elected official, anybody who's making a first.

few things. I think there's [: 00:36:00

Because it probably will be different is important. I can't, you know, tell you how many people I encountered who felt like, okay, we can have the exact same staff [00:36:30] schedule, uh, security, which are very interesting piece of this. You need significantly more security as a female leader. That's a well researched fact and certainly was true for me.

to be different. And so you [: 00:36:45

Again, of all [00:37:15] the women I meet with, that's almost the number one thing. That comes up as a concern and it's everything from you know, the pictures that are posted about me people don't think about the fact that you know, my My skirt might have been twisted and is showing a little bit of leg and you can't put [00:37:30] that online because you will get these Not only atrocious comments But it actually changes people's point of view if you put it suddenly casts you as a woman and not as a leader.

that's a constant with women [: 00:37:45

Somebody has to be conscientious that that is something they're going to have to fight against, that they might have to do more work on your bio, on putting you out there and showing that you're qualified for the job you're doing. So I think really being conscientious that the woman [00:38:15] will be perceived differently.

hat, but understanding where [: 00:38:30

Make it easier, make it harder, or just will shape the narrative differently. So you kind of know what battle you're going into together. I really do believe that [00:38:45] we don't do enough to help people understand what they're asking someone to do when they ask them to be a first. There are some very concrete ways we actually can support them better.

nk that we're checking a box [: 00:39:00

Aransas Savas: Yeah, it has to go a lot further than that. And I love the steps you outlined because I can hear immediately how they apply across domains.

them was I had the second in [: 00:39:15

And that gave me an opportunity to see firsthand what was happening to women. In particular, what was happening to firsts. And I went back to school to actually try to unpack why that [00:39:30] was. And so I think for me, it helped me not only prepare, but it also helped me understand what was going to happen to me.

so I think we need to do for [: 00:39:45

Often called a DEI. Hire is a very [00:40:00] common insult. And so, you know, I think that because I knew that would happen, I wouldn't say that it wasn't hard. I mean, I knew that it wasn't personal. And I think that for a lot of women, there's a ton of data that women serve in corporate CEO roles for less time, that [00:40:15] female politicians serve less long tenures than their male counterparts.

lot of these levels and you [: 00:40:30

So I think preparing women, I mean, it sounds terrible, right? I'd like to tell the women, Oh, it's going to be a great experience, but I'd be lying. Uh, it is. It's hard in ways that are common to all leaders, and then it's hard in ways that are very [00:41:00] specifically gendered. You know, a lot of the insults in the comments are very specifically gendered, you know, rape threats against public officials, uh, who are women is a very common thing.

ppens to them, they can feel [: 00:41:15

Wow.

Aransas Savas: [: 00:41:30

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, I agree. It's really shocking when it happens to you and you don't know that it's not about you. It's really shocking when it happens, I [00:41:45] should say period. But we saw this happen a lot. We would feature female firefighters during different things on our social media.

ing sort of happens far away [: 00:42:00

You know, I'm just doing my job and I'm [00:42:15] going into this post. Just to show people what it's like to do my job because I care about this profession and want to inspire others to follow it. And they would be asked, you know, we've taken off social media because it was so cool. Because it wasn't about them.

It was people [: 00:42:30

You know, it wasn't the people in that office who were largely male. So I often spoke to some of them directly to say, this [00:43:00] isn't about you. A, you have every right to not want to go through it if you want to be taken down, but also I just want you to know that this is what happens to me every day and it has nothing to do with you.

her goals and aims using you [: 00:43:15

Aransas Savas: Yeah. And as women, the research shows we are more likely to internalize anger and blame than men who externalize. That's why this point to me feels so vital because our tendency as women [00:43:30] is often to say, what did I do wrong?

Oh, I shouldn't have worn my skirt twisted, right? Instead of. Look, as a team, we need to take responsibility for this.

sages our whole life, right? [: 00:43:45

But you do, right? So not only we are given these messages, but I'm sure you as I did growing up had to cover my drink and never leave it alone and [00:44:00] consider whether or not I wanted to wear a certain outfit out, you know, so it's not only that people tell us those things, it's actually that to keep ourselves safe, we're always Thinking about how to not make someone else mad.

that's a really, really deep [: 00:44:15

And it's simple as, you know, you're out with your girlfriends, someone comes over, he says, I'd like to buy you a drink and you, you know, you say, no, I'm on girls night out. And I'm not talking about some lengthy, complicated human experience. And I don't know if I'm [00:44:45] allowed to say this on this podcast, but the number of times that a man will then call you a bitch there are, I would say over 50%.

you begin to learn that not [: 00:45:00

Even if we think the thing should be [00:45:15] okay, we still try to look for how did I cause this? I'd say that's true for myself. Despite whatever toughness and data and all the things we've talked about that I learned to get myself to this place, it doesn't mean that I am not often like, [00:45:30] if I had just done X, would this have been easier for me?

You know, that's always a thought. It's still

h others while also actively [: 00:45:45

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, I also think, you know, one of the things that's so important in leaders in this day and age is authenticity.

lly struggle. I think we all [: 00:46:00

The type of person you don't date can be fodder for gossip. Even just Your sex life is more of a, of greater curiosity to people and also of greater like shame and blame than it is for men. You hear this over and [00:46:30] over with women who run for political office and it's definitely true of both Kamala Harris and Nikki Haley, um, that they're often called like two like, Like rigid or closed off, or I don't really know who they are, or I don't know if I could have a beer with them, you know, and people kind of dismiss that as [00:46:45] important, and I, again, as a campaign person, it's not, you know, people, authenticity is important, but I also have so much empathy, because just like them, I have learned to not talk about my personal life, not talk about, um, you know, certain things that I do in my [00:47:00] free time, because it has been such a painful point of criticism.

ng about the crazy night out [: 00:47:15

It would be all about what I wore, what I did, and that would be a story in the newspaper the next day. So I think there's a real, [00:47:30] really hard line for female leaders to cut around being authentic when so much of your experience coming up the ranks shows you that being authentic made you vulnerable in a way that was bad.

tique we were, or just to be [: 00:47:45

You know, that my family is secretly rich and bought me the job, which could be less true and causes my parents to like laugh very hard, but it causes you to just. move away from being [00:48:15] open in public life. And that's hard because then people also want you to be authentic and you want to be how you get there is, is harder.

that that's, it's a defense [: 00:48:30

Aransas Savas: Right, and I think then to your original point, this becomes a question of volume.

his is to have enough equity [: 00:48:45

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, exactly. Where it shouldn't be. So of such Peaked curiosity. Like what a woman does in her personal life, right? I actually think this is a really a great place [00:49:00] where Gen Z is making some inroads that are very curious to me. And I think call her daddy, you know, the number one people, and this makes me crazy.

reason that's so interesting [: 00:49:15

And even though, like, they're much younger than me and much cooler, and I don't necessarily relate to their lives at [00:49:30] this point, I do actually see that as being a huge change. That was not true for me. It is not true for my mom's generation that you could be messy and succeed. So for them to be Changing that idea [00:49:45] that to be messy, to talk about your sex life and romance and relationships and all the things that all of us in our twenties go through and, you know, beyond not saying that stops in your twenties, but the wild times out normalizing that.[00:50:00]

years from [: 00:50:15

They're putting it out there without fear, which I, you know, I watch those and I'm like, I wish like if I could wish for a [00:50:30] magic trait, it would be to be that comfortable talking about my life because really, I've been, I've been taught my whole life to put those things aside. And I think it's, it's.

ide. But I love that they're [: 00:50:45

Aransas Savas: point. And I think it relates directly to this idea that we have to dimensionalize human beings in [00:51:00] order to find connection. And it's the, the flattening is the danger.

And so we flattened women as these one dimensional people who don't make anybody mad, but just make things better.

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah.

human beings who are making [: 00:51:15

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah. A hundred percent. And you really, you see that with a lot of men who have done something wrong in the public space, people coming out and saying, but he had a rough upbringing or this or that.

n because it's not fair, but [: 00:51:30

And probably some of those men deserve that forgiveness and some do not, [00:51:45] but it should be the same thing with women. And there is, again, a lot of research around that, that the idea that It's not that men or women do things wrong at a higher, greater rate, you know, like, yes, we'd all love to say women are perfect leaders and not the men.

iously be very self serving, [: 00:52:00

And we definitely do not do that with [00:52:30] women. I always call it the Petri dish. It's, uh, be perfect, be under a microscope, be perfect. And even in the ways that that perfection is annoying, that you don't tell me what your personal life is like, or you don't tell me about your girl's night out. There's always some way in which that's wrong because we're not [00:52:45] multidimensional.

d I love that. And extremely [: 00:53:00

That is a rad [00:53:15] idea, I think. And I'd like to be messy, but it's hard to go backwards at this point in my life.

Aransas Savas: I mean, I looked around for podcasts where people were talking to Laura Kavanaugh to do my homework, and I didn't find many.

Kavanaugh: I will say, this [: 00:53:30

And so I only did when I was working, what was required for my job. And a lot of that, you'll find a lot more of me on TV talking about [00:53:45] fires and disasters. Cause that was my job testifying in front of Congress, things that, Frankly, you're not very sexy. That's sort of, I think, where I specialize. Not that that's the brand I want, but because I was shy and I was reserved and also I did see the [00:54:00] risks in putting myself out there.

ou, right? We never had time [: 00:54:15

The critical piece. And that is almost always the job of the fire commissioner, so. It's a long ways between me and being [00:54:30] a hot mess. This is my start. Maybe a first step and yeah. So what are you up to these days? So I did the thing that both nobody believes and also nobody ever actually does, even though they say they're going to do, which is I [00:54:45] actually just took six months off.

city. I hadn't. Really left [: 00:55:00

Our family has many branches. Um, new york is home for me but there is no such as thing, you know, sometimes people say are you going to like where your family is [00:55:15] from or home and I always laugh because it would that would require a passport and a lot of more airplane miles than anyone has But I did my best to go see as many of them as possible Spent some time with my parents Which I had not done in, in some time, and [00:55:30] honestly just took time, you know, to your point, took time to rebuild my community, is what I'd say.

on and care, and not able to [: 00:55:45

Or I had friends who had kids who I had not had a chance to see yet, let alone get to know and babysit. And so I've been [00:56:00] doing that, which is, no one believes me. There's lots of interesting rumors about that one too. Uh, one that I'm secretly pregnant, which I'm not, uh, two that I, uh, fled. New York because of the, um, investigations with the Southern District, which has nothing to do with [00:56:15] me, luckily.

So shows you how, again, being, uh, not very public can create some real strange misinformation,

Music: but

to the drawing board. I did [: 00:56:30

There's some things I definitely need to turn my attention to being a responsible adult again, but for the last few months, it has been [00:56:45] truly a commitment to making up for lost time.

Aransas Savas: I think that balance is, again, underestimated in terms of its importance to sustaining motivation to keep doing really hard, meaningful things.

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah. I [: 00:57:00

And that's actually really hard because a lot of us like some of our best friends, right? We meet at work But when you have that kind of job where you are the boss of everyone you need a place where you can go and And actually be messy right one on one you have to say I had a hard [00:57:30] day. I think I messed something up.

u out and make you laugh and [: 00:57:45

You can't come in tired and grumpy every day. And so, really [00:58:00] realizing how much I had asked of people while I was in the job, I really felt like I needed to, to kind of go back to that. And this is another place that feels gendered. But just that we, I think as women, do not feel we are allowed to take a break.[00:58:15]

ne wrote an article saying I [: 00:58:30

It was being a person who takes care of myself and doing something that most people have to get done every few years as they reach their 40s. And that's an example to me, a small one, but it happened a lot. [00:58:45] And I've heard it from other female leaders where you also really end up putting in 100 percent because you understand the amount of scrutiny on you means that you can't.

rd. Yeah, the stakes and the [: 00:59:00

You know, maybe there should be term limits on being a [00:59:15] leader because it is exhausting, but it's certainly like there just is this, there's a significant breaks at least a little like hiatus, sabbatical. It's in the data and it's in the data strongly, uh, in every, every sort of leadership [00:59:30] career that women serve shorter terms.

oing to burn you out faster. [: 00:59:45

Aransas Savas: I think too. I mean, as you think about the effects of fatigue in general, and those are so well researched that being blackout drunk basically has the same empowerment on our brains as being [01:00:00] blackout tired.

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah.

so many roles societally in [: 01:00:15

Laura Kavanaugh: yourself.

years of exhausting myself, [: 01:00:30

You know, again, normalizing that for there to be so many doubts and sort of like conspiracy theories around me actually taking time off shows you how unusual that is. People simply couldn't believe it, you know, and what I said to them when they'd say things like that, I'd [01:01:00] say, you didn't know, you had no idea how tired I was.

ly that I had put myself in. [: 01:01:15

Aransas Savas: I talk a lot about raising courage capital and I think this is the other side of it is to raise [01:01:30] courage capital means to repay some of those debts sometimes to those who inform and inspire our courage.

inly not what my friends are [: 01:01:45

My friends were like, we love this for you. And we wanted, we felt like we're in it together, but be able to say like, I, I owe you something, or I wasn't the best friend I could be. And now I want to be, it takes a lot of courage. It's people generally don't do it.

Aransas Savas: I'm [: 01:02:00

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, me too.

edibly specific, is entirely [: 01:02:15

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah, I agree. Like one of the biggest mistaken people, things people have about leaders is that they were born that way. That there's something unique and special about them, or even that they sort of woke up looking like the person you see on TV.

It's [: 01:02:30

Every leader for the most part looks around and says like, wow, how did I become this person? Because there's a person in an earlier and not that long ago part of my life who never could have done this. So to your point, they're all very universal things. There is not a [01:03:00] huge difference, but part of leadership and putting on that polish often, I think, makes people think those people are unique in some way that they're not.

Aransas Savas: In my experience, there's

Laura Kavanaugh: humans.

Aransas Savas: Yeah, I think we all have that within us.

Laura Kavanaugh: Yeah.

Aransas Savas: Yeah, [: 01:03:15

Laura Kavanaugh: Me too. Thanks for having me.

Aransas Savas: [: 01:03:30

It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one of [01:04:00] these beautiful stories. Mm,

ing, though you find it ing. [: 01:04:15

Hindsight. Bring the sun to twilight. [01:04:30] Lift you up, whoa,

Music: Lift you up, whoa, Lift you up, whoa,

Lift you up.[: 01:04:45

Lift you up.

Lift you[: 01:05:00

lift.

at little thing you did with [: 01:05:15

Laura Kavanaugh: crying. You're disturbing the peace.