Playing Big with Mahogany L. Browne

TUP EP 115

Nomination: [: 00:00:00

She has a vision. And she's just bringing people along and beyond. There are so many of us [00:00:45] who can say, we stood on a Lincoln Center stage because of Mahogany. Just a genius on the page and a genius on the stage.

I'm so excited to introduce [: 00:01:00

Phil Shaw Mahogany is an award-winning writer, playwright, organizer, and educator whose work spans poetry, [00:01:15] young adult literature, and. She is the inaugural poet in residence at Lincoln Center and founder of the Woke Baby Book Fair, where she's created spaces where voices like hers and countless others can be heard [00:01:30] and celebrated.

smitten by. It's a powerful [: 00:01:45

As soon [00:02:00] as we start this conversation. Honestly, I was so energized. Coming off of this book that I just sort of dove right into the conversation anyway, you're gonna love Mahogany. She's gotten a lot of [00:02:15] recognition for her work, but what really makes her extraordinary is her unwavering commitment to leaving the ladder down for others.

le, trusting your voice, and [: 00:02:30

Welcome Maho.

e to speak with already, um, [: 00:03:00

Aransas Savas: Same. I was reading Chlorine Sky this week and there's so much I wanna talk about in there and there's so much, I just felt so deeply and I listened to another [00:03:15] interview you did in preparation for this, and one of the women talked about your work is feeling like a short film.

feel our way into what that [: 00:03:30

And so we were talking about it last night and we realized that all of the [00:03:45] art we like best, no matter how brief gives us a full story. I felt like I was living with you in your world, in chlorine sky.

Glad that's the point. Point [: 00:04:00

That story to be the mirror. Like any of us can be sky, any of us can be lili, right? [00:04:15] Mm-hmm. If we don't just put a name on it and, uh, distance ourselves from the human activity that we've all been aware of and a part of whether we knew it or not.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

r me to like, allow folks to [: 00:04:30

Yeah, I would never do that. That can't be me. Yeah. So I wanted them to find a way, even if it's just a toehold, whatever, just something to hold onto so they can see it for how I saw it. And then once you [00:04:45] have had that discussion at a dinner or two, you realize everyone was a le. And everyone was a sky.

to yesterday. Tell us about [: 00:05:00

Aransas Savas: I'm so grateful that you brought that up because I did just feel like sky.[00:05:15]

d yet in that longing, we do [: 00:05:30

Mahogany Brown: We

Aransas Savas: get

Mahogany Brown: to be Ingrid. We do. We have the capacity for both, right? Yeah. If we're honest, we have the capacity for both.

s, have thrown shade, all of [: 00:05:45

Aransas Savas: It's an incredibly generous [00:06:00] perspective too, for you to see the world that way because it doesn't other anyone.

ay. You bullied me. And once [: 00:06:15

In Sky's position and you know, Lely was like a real friend that was a [00:06:30] real back and forth situation. But in this high school reunion gathering, uh, the girl said, not Lely, no one that's even written in the book, but she was like, you remember that time you made this joke about me and my boyfriend? And, and [00:06:45] it really like, hurt my feelings and it like stuck with me for a long time.

o, I hurt someone's feelings [: 00:07:00

My perspective is also unreliable. Uhhuh, my narration [00:07:15] is also unreliable because I didn't even see, I didn't oscillate and look through the landscape. I just saw what was happening to me. I didn't know that in my attempt to remain remembered [00:07:30] or somebody's bestie or loyal, I hurt this other person. So I wanted to write that book in the sense that you never know.

You can decide who's who, but like you, you're both. Mm-hmm. You are both. And

nsas Savas: we even see that [: 00:07:45

Mahogany Brown: Yes. She betrayed her personal constitution. How many times have we done that? Even if.

[: 00:08:00

What happens when you just

right now and we say like, I [: 00:08:30

Mahogany Brown: threshold? It gets incredibly difficult when you have to be accountable for your decision or inactivity.

'cause that too is a decision. Mm-hmm. It's

nd which I really appreciate [: 00:08:45

Mahogany Brown: right

Aransas Savas: now. Whatcha gonna do with that?

Mahogany Brown: That's it. That's it. You like, that's a synopsis of my life.

Please blurb my life. [: 00:09:00

Think of those friends that refuse to leave that partner who just isn't worthy of their time. Every Sunday brunch, they got something to say about 'em. And you get to the point where you're like, you're choosing this. Which one is it?

Aransas Savas: [: 00:09:30

Ah, yeah. Yeah. Through the complaint, through the frustration, we have to build the muscle [00:09:45] to be brave enough to take action. We have to cry the tears to raise our awareness and our expectation that we deserve better.

Mahogany Brown: Yeah.

Aransas Savas: And where's the threshold?

Mahogany Brown: Yeah. There's more work. Like we can't just name it.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: We can't [: 00:10:00

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

to therapy, but they journal [: 00:10:15

It has healing properties, and it is not [00:10:30] therapy. You don't have the skillset to undo these things that I've so become accustomed to. I've learned to do to to keep myself alive, to keep myself out harm's way and poems allow me to see it for what it is and to not be gaslit into believing it's [00:10:45] something else.

ing and telling. There is an [: 00:11:00

To better themselves. Otherwise, we become kind of like snake oil distributors where we're like, this is really good. I dunno how it works on [00:11:15] anyone. I just know that wrote it. And you should.

Aransas Savas: So how

Mahogany Brown: do we make sure that we are not only. Healing our, but we aren't pedaling off some idea of healing to people who need two parts of that.

understanding, there is the [: 00:11:30

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: How I differentiate the two is that I'm always aware that one is the call.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. I [: 00:11:45

Mahogany Brown: Yep, that's right.

Just the first step. It's

Aransas Savas: not the end. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the reason we feel stuck is 'cause we've only taken the first step and then we're like, nothing is changing.

. I named the thing and it's [: 00:12:00

We build them.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

I can't speak Spanish really [: 00:12:15

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: [: 00:12:30

Aransas Savas: It's like a woman I interviewed last week talked about the being in the toddlerhood of grief.

ood of Spanish for sure, and [: 00:13:00

Mahogany Brown: really walk right. But for you to acknowledge it means you're open to the learning. I love that. The toddlerhood so good. The toddlerhood,

Aransas Savas: isn't that a good word?

But I also think like, [: 00:13:15

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're just waiting for somebody else to say, let me take you out of this. Let me save you. Mm-hmm. There it is.

Yeah. Once you name it, you [: 00:13:45

No one is making it for me. This is it. Like no one is [00:14:00] making me go to the dentist. No one's making me do my yearly checkup.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: So the onus becomes on the person who is well aware that they're moving outta toddlerhood.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. They're like,

to like manage this. But the [: 00:14:15

I never shy away from it. I've never been like, oh no, not for me. But I also [00:14:30] recognize that it wasn't the thing that we looked towards growing up. If anything, you don't talk at all. Like it'll go away if you're quiet. Mm-hmm. And so I'm from the school of if I write it down, I'm not quiet, and if I share it, [00:14:45] I'm not quiet.

. Right. I was thinking that [: 00:15:00

The therapy helped me see it. [00:15:15] Otherwise, I was like running in a circle, a hamster wheel of what did I do wrong? I have to make this right. I have to do this for you so that you know that I'm good. Whole time. I'm disabling myself. I'm putting myself in harm's way. I'm losing sleep. I'm losing weight. I'm [00:15:30] forgetting to take care of myself and go to the doctor.

ed me the mirror and it gave [: 00:15:45

I was protecting myself. So once I take the [00:16:00] thing that I found out in writing to this therapist, I realize, oh, I've been trying to be the adult since I. Not by by choice, because that's what happens when, you know, you're growing up in a Reagan era, in, [00:16:15] you know, Northern California where drugs have ravaged the neighborhood.

'll get dragged along in the [: 00:16:30

Like, do I deserve to be here? Because everything around me said that I was going to die or be quiet. Or I'm only good enough if I'm of [00:17:00] service.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: All dead ends.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: All dead ends, because I never got to say who I was.

Aransas Savas: They're all very passive too. Mm. And silence is passive.

Mahogany Brown: Yes.

mother who lived through the [: 00:17:15

Oh yes. Passiveness was the greatest virtue. And my grandmother is my hero. Mm-hmm. And my heart. Mm-hmm. And I [00:17:30] learned from her that the smaller you played, the more valuable you were. For real. That was

Mahogany Brown: what, why can't you be like her? Quiet, like her demure silent.

My grandmother, every time I [: 00:17:45

She'd say, no. I was like, well, grandma, you could ask them to be your friend. Ask who? You don't ask someone to be [00:18:00] your

o be helped. Full comes from [: 00:18:15

I realized how much they made me, me, how much of my strength comes from watching them. And even the way that I, I come to help others is because they needed help and nobody saw it, but I did. So now I'm gonna help in ways that would [00:18:30] make them proud. I wonder what you learned from Yeah. Besides the, you know, the, the silence, like there's something

Aransas Savas: I learned the power of encouragement.

ike, oh, you're so talented, [: 00:18:45

I learned creativity at any cost. But I mean, those, those are the heirlooms. Yeah, those the heirlooms. [00:19:15] So it's a mixed bag, but it all made me who I am. You know? She, she saved and rescued me when I trace the trajectory of my life back. It is definitely one of those pivot points where. [00:19:30] The life that might have been is much scarier, and that every time I kind of took like a big detour, I'd be like, she's over there.

tely the safe place to land, [: 00:19:45

Like, so there's that direct lineage, but it's also my aunts. Mm-hmm. And I think about in your book and that moment when she says, why are you playing so small? Mm. Who are you playing small for? [00:20:15] I want that moment for every girl and every woman a thousand times over. And I feel like you like just look at your tv.

small. You are playing very [: 00:20:30

Mahogany Brown: Yeah, I think I just bet on myself. I just kept betting on me. I refuse [00:20:45] to believe folks when they said I didn't belong or I shouldn't write about this, or I just refused to believe outside of my own body and my own voice.

What I. [: 00:21:00

No one thought [00:21:30] that possible. Lincoln Center's inaugural poet in resonance was a gift, but it, it was not the gift that I didn't deserve. I had been working in New York City, creating spaces for other poets, editing other poets on stage, on the [00:21:45] page, carrying babies across the bridge when the, the lights go out in New York, which happens every 10 years or something, silly babies are made those nights too.

no matter what. Mm-hmm. And [: 00:22:00

Because I know what happens when people write in my image. And are not of me or from where I'm from. I know how flat I can sound.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

le my experiences can be. So [: 00:22:30

Aransas Savas: Yeah, so I'm, I'm like trying to synthesize the lessons in this for myself and the rest of us.

Yeah, [: 00:22:45

And then the second one I wrote down is [00:23:15] importance. Mm. So when you talk about the, the importance of writing your own story, I talk about that as a strong why.

Mahogany Brown: Yeah.

core that your work matters. [: 00:23:30

And you are an editor and you have been edited, and you have gotten probably billions of pieces of feedback in the course [00:23:45] of your life. Oh, a lot of it encouraging, a lot of it discouraging, I imagine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you choose what to listen to, to grow and what to say? That's not for me.

any Brown: Yeah. I love that [: 00:24:00

Not to say that those [00:24:15] parts can't be strengthened. Not to say that you don't have room to grow, but you know when someone is for you and they're telling you something that is constructive versus when someone is just critiquing you for. Just to make you [00:24:30] small or to make themselves sound smart, but it's always to make you small.

to get my approval that that [: 00:24:45

Mm-hmm. Where are they in the world? I would do a lot of work in like [00:25:00] communal spaces with peers and I believe in peer critique. I teach it when I'm doing workshops or, or having a class somewhere. I think it's important for you to be in conversation with the folks around you because that is. [00:25:15] And I made it a point that even though we're peers, I can tell by your behavior if I'm someone you care about, if my work is something you care about, or if you're just trying to chop me at the knees to [00:25:30] humble me, to put me in my place, and not everyone has the coof or tact to tell it to you, you know, in a way that allows you to receive it and not, you know.

You power [: 00:25:45

And I'll never forget it. I'll never forget the [00:26:15] moment in the library. Martin Luther King Junior Library in Sacramento, California will never forget. I was hiding out, crying in the stacks, weeping in the stacks because I felt like, oh, I'm not, I'm

Aransas Savas: [: 00:26:30

Mahogany Brown: I'm not wrong. Wrong is not my name Word to June Jordan, I am not wrong.

starting with is how do you [: 00:26:45

Aransas Savas: You're listening to the people who get what you're doing. Mm-hmm. [00:27:15] And it's almost like, to me, that's a whole other level of this. Yes. To be able to say, oh, that's not my person. And it's not just that they believe in me or that they wanna make me better, but they get what I'm doing instead of giving me feedback for something that I [00:27:30] was never trying to do anyway.

know, like, so it's not even [: 00:27:45

In that same canon. They're like, if your poem should be good, get it closer to mine.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Not if your poem is gonna be [: 00:28:00

I've, you know, worked with, I have the, the [00:28:30] luck of being able to turn to those folks and say, can, can I bend your ear real quick? And we all have those people. The woman at the bookstore for the last 30 years, she knows some stuff, right? She's read that thing, ask her what she thinks. I knew how to [00:28:45] write poems because my grandmother, when she listened to me, read them, she would either give me her full attention or she would do this, and I'm not playing.

down. Uh, I'm talking to her [: 00:29:00

Aransas Savas: as a success metric. Yeah. Like, do I capture [00:29:15] attention in this?

Is it being received or is it just noise?

Mahogany Brown: Yes,

Aransas Savas: because we don't need to add any more noise.

ou telling me a truth or are [: 00:29:30

One of her quotes when reading our poems was, are you writing the poem or are you in the [00:29:45] way of the written? And that's a real question we all get to ask ourselves, are you writing the story or are you in the way of the story being written? Are you writing and editing? Because that sounds like you're in the way.

Aransas Savas: Uhhuh, right? Uhhuh? Or are

wn: you just writing it down [: 00:30:00

And if they do, it's because they've written a million poems already, right? Mm-hmm. But we're all still in our like, you know, expert yoga hours. You gotta, you gotta [00:30:30] do a couple of hundred of those bad boys to be limber. How are you doing that in your poetry work? How are you doing that in your writing work?

ow do I feel? Yeah, I'm sure [: 00:30:45

Mahogany Brown: don't

Aransas Savas: think I have it.

Mahogany Brown: I don't

Aransas Savas: uhhuh

y Brown: all of it is, let's [: 00:31:00

I don't wanna bring up that the Hamilton musical, but when he's writing against Time Uhhuh, I feel like [00:31:15] that's me. I'm writing against time. Folks are, do you sleep? Oh, you put out something every year? Yeah, because I wasn't supposed to be here, you know, and so I don't take any of these opportunities for granted.

I am thankful to have [: 00:31:30

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

that I don't feel like I've [: 00:31:45

I'm intuitive to like what the room requires. I can feel the spark and the crackle, and then that comes from 13 years of hosting at the new Euan. [00:32:00] New York City is not for the faint of hearts and hosting 200 people in a room that it only should be seating 120 and bringing up five to seven poets a.[00:32:15]

ir child, a miscarriage, gun [: 00:32:30

So that's one thing I got. I know how to do that. I have not mastered the page. Ah, is still reading me and I'm okay with it.

Aransas Savas: Yeah.

get another day, how do you [: 00:33:00

I also have a partner who's an amazing reader. Most of my friends are poets or poetry lovers. Which is crazy. That's great. [00:33:30] When I think about it now, I laugh so hard. I'm like, wow, I just pretty vain mo pretty vain. Mm. It's like,

Aransas Savas: oh, it's only club. You've found your people, you found your that, that all we're trying

Mahogany Brown: to do.

You're right. You're right. [: 00:33:45

It's a i, I know. I can't help it. It just, even when I do a breath or a break, it feels like a line break. It's a [00:34:15] lot, but having those be your friends, it's helpful because Nonplused, they, they're like, Hmm, that was cool. Get another mimosa for us. That's great. It's like they've

Aransas Savas: learned the language of the density in your speech.

Yeah. [: 00:34:30

Yeah. Yep. You're constantly creating these spaces for art and community. How much is it [00:35:00] giving you and how much is it giving the people that you are encouraging and supporting?

ities that those experiences [: 00:35:15

Mm-hmm. I feel fed because there is a safe space to share thoughts and ideas, and I remember coming up, I didn't always feel like those spaces existed, especially for, you know, newcomers and up and coming writers. [00:35:30] So I love that feeling of we're creating something. I feel good about coming and sharing and, and learning and growing.

there, a lot of heroes, but [: 00:35:45

Aransas Savas: answer because I think there is a misconception in our world that service must be selfless.

Mahogany Brown: [: 00:36:00

When people had to sit home and look at themselves before therapists were, you know, video ready. [00:36:30] The arts were a large part of people's soothing method. What happens when you no longer have access to it? And so now you don't wanna pay that poet for that haiku that you have now tattooed on your body that has brought [00:36:45] you like, has become a prayer and a mantra for your everydayness.

So as Uplifters,

Aransas Savas: we uplift.

Mahogany Brown: Yeah.

Aransas Savas: What can we do to support you and your work in the world?

Mahogany Brown: Follow me on [: 00:37:00

Like I love that. You know, I love the invitation to like really discuss what we're doing and where it's going next and, and how we're in community together, even if we may not have met, because we absolutely must start moving with [00:37:30] like-mindedness in mind. And when I say like-mindedness, I'm not talking about.

tion is absolutely available [: 00:37:45

Aransas Savas: I think we get that so directly from your answer to how you keep going. And it is with a strong sense of purpose and belief in the importance.

Mahogany Brown: That's right.

: And so if we have a shared [: 00:38:00

Mahogany Brown: Mm-hmm. I would even go deeper and say, instead of a shared belief, I would like a shared mission.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

ny Brown: Because the belief [: 00:38:15

With, and so now we must come back together.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany Brown: Recalibrate. Mm-hmm. And accelerate.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.[: 00:38:45

And your friends, I'm sure would say, Hmm, that's just mahogany.

Mahogany Brown: There she goes.

Aransas Savas: Mahogany being mahogany.

Mahogany Brown: So funny.

for making time. Thank you. [: 00:39:00

Mahogany Brown: you for all you're doing in the world. And congratulations the intergenerational household. We are mirroring each other.

Yeah, so we're lucky. Take time for yourself. Thank you. You

I almost forgot my favorite [: 00:39:15

Mahogany Brown: my nomination, I think. Can I do a drummer as well? Yes, please. Mine is. She [00:39:30] writes about the atrocities and the dreams deferred from love torn relationships As a mother, author, curator, anthropologist, and psychologist, she's a cultural worker who remains a beacon of resilience [00:39:45] to us all.

I love how she does not must or fus over genre, which is to say. Our stories belong everywhere. My,

Aransas Savas: my,

her. I'm like, can we talk? [: 00:40:00

Aransas Savas: it.

Mahogany Brown: Hey,

Aransas Savas: party line. Oh. Do you remember the party line? We used to have one. I know.

down the street. Mm-hmm. So [: 00:40:15

Mahogany Brown: 1995. That was a good year. It was. It was. We were, we

Aransas Savas: [: 00:40:30

Mahogany Brown: back then. I still had acid washed jeans, you know, I had, yeah, I had a great time in 1995. That was high school, was it? What year did you graduate? 95. January of 95 for the class of 94. I had a, had to go back and finish that [00:40:45] last semester.

Courtesy of my grandmother pulling me by the ear and being

saved. Baby.

I moved out my senior year, [: 00:41:00

Mahogany Brown: glad for us. Me too. Well done. Books are lucky because you know we said yes,

Aransas Savas: that's right. [: 00:41:15

Mahogany Brown: We're gonna

Aransas Savas: keep saying yes too, and we'll keep learning from each other, period.

, please share them with the [: 00:41:30

Music: Big love painted water sunshine with [00:42:00] Rosemary Ann. Time dwell in the perplexing though you find it faxing. Toss a star in for be around best love for relish in a new prime plant a tree in [00:42:15] springtime dance. With that all hindsight, bring the sun to twilight. Lift you up. Whoa. Lift you up.[00:42:30]

Lift you up. Whoa, lift you up.

Lift you up.

Lift [: 00:42:45

Lift you up.

Lift you up.[: 00:43:00

Beautiful. I cried. Isn't that little thing you did with your voice, right? In the pre-course, right? Uhhuh. I was like, mommy, stop. Mommy, stop crying. You're [00:43:15] disturbing the peace.