How to Disentangle your Worth from your Achievements with Sarah Gormley

TUP EP 111

Aransas Savas: [: 00:00:00

But sometimes building that courage capital means letting go of everything we thought we were supposed to want. Sometimes it means discovering that the very achievements we believed would bring us happiness. Have actually been keeping us [00:00:45] from Joy. My guest today, Sarah Gomley, spent decades believing her worth came from doing, rather than being a successful marketing executive in San Francisco, she was checking all the boxes, impressive titles, beautiful apartments, [00:01:00] climbing, salary figures, but she was miserable when she got laid off, just as her mother was dying back in Ohio, Sarah made the decision that she would change everything.

home to care for her mom on [: 00:01:15

Today at 52, Sarah lives in Columbus, Ohio, [00:01:45] a place she never thought she'd call home. She runs an art gallery. She's deeply in love with a kind man named Camillis, and she's written a beautiful memoir called The Order of Things About How Everything she [00:02:00] Thought Divine Success. Actually keeping her from the life she truly wanted.

l markers of success haven't [: 00:02:15

Sarah Gromley: Hi. Thank you for having

Aransas Savas: me. My

Sarah Gromley: pleasure.

Aransas Savas: I really, really, really, really loved your book.

Sarah Gromley: [: 00:02:30

So thank you. And that was a lot of really, so I don't think you're making it up. I think you must have liked it, so thank you.

No, I, I really loved it. I [: 00:02:45

To like slowly make [00:03:00] my way through every word of it. One of the things we talk a lot about on this show is the fact that, you know, we all think we need financial capital, but I believe that what we really need in order to make whatever impact we want is courage capital. And [00:03:15] your book is a tremendous example of what it looks like to have courage capital.

ted courage. But I think the [: 00:03:30

And I think when you're that kind of person, being somebody who says, let me show what it took [00:04:00] to become who I'm is, scary. Really freaking hard. So I like have a million things I wanna talk to you about, but if I got to pick just one, it would be what the process was [00:04:15] for you mentally of saying, I'm gonna share this openly and honestly,

Sarah Gromley: I'm hesitating because I'm like stuck on the courage thing.

l. So. There's probably some [: 00:04:30

Poetry comes really easily to me and has [00:04:45] since I was a kid. I suppose somewhere in the back of my mind, I thought maybe I could write a book one day, but I never thought I had subject matter. That was interesting enough. I never thought I would probably write fiction. And [00:05:00] so what happened is after my life changed in these pretty significant ways, back in Columbus had been in therapy for six years already, seven, maybe had the art gallery [00:05:15] and.

kshop setting. So a thousand,: 1200

And I sort of said to myself, I said it aloud to my boyfriend first. I said, [00:05:45] I'm, I'm gonna write a book. And he said, well, if you want to, you probably will. So I didn't know how long it would take, but the reason I was writing things down is at that point I was still trying to figure out how this [00:06:00] happened.

really lonely? How does that [: 00:06:15

And I was trying to answer it for myself because [00:06:30] I couldn't believe it. There's a scene in the book where I say like, this man saw me crying at the gas station. And he was like, ma'am, ma'am, are you okay? And I'm like, crying. I was, yes. I'm just so

Aransas Savas: happy.[: 00:06:45

And I'm a complete and total string here to you. I'd include all the bad stuff. I mean, I could

about all the things nobody [: 00:07:00

Aransas Savas: I think many women find it difficult to tell the truth about themselves because we are afraid of being judged. But to write an interesting book, you actually have to include the moments in which you are a human being, [00:07:15] right?

Seen.

on ourselves. I've received [: 00:07:30

Readers aren't judging you because they're too busy judging themselves. Part of memoir is saying, look, we're all trying, we're all fucked up. Life is [00:08:00] messy, so here's my story. You know? So I don't know. It is a really interesting process. Are you a writer?

e on the podcast and my, and [: 00:08:15

The truer we can be, the more connection and empathy we receive. Right. And that was one of the things I, it was so funny to me because in the book, you write this beautiful book and you end [00:08:30] it, and I literally made a note to myself for this interview to say, why is this subtitle chasing joy? Because if I.

r you. Having read the book. [: 00:08:45

So I was like, okay, there we go. But for you, it seems like the [00:09:15] path to joy was the messy, honest truth.

he epigraph, the Mary Oliver [: 00:09:30

The book wasn't an idea. Then I opened the gallery in 19 around the thesis of art [00:09:45] being a source of joy for everyone. So this idea of joy was in my life, but even as I was writing the book, and even as I was editing the book and didn't know how to end it, I still didn't necessarily think [00:10:00] I was worthy of joy, you know, or a joyful life.

ause it's like I was chasing [: 00:10:15

So I was like, well, it's my book. There's the subtitle. [00:10:30]

Aransas Savas: How is Joy different than satisfaction?

Right. I think happiness is [: 00:10:45

It's some sort of a, a celebration, an [00:11:00] appreciation. It might be a joyful moment, but it's also something you carry and create. I think it's, it's much closer to what I was trying to explain. Again, I think satisfaction lacks [00:11:15] the celebratory element of. I'm satisfied after a workout, but I'm not always joyful.

my life being where they are [: 00:11:30

Aransas Savas: to me. That's a great question. I've never thought about it. I picked that word kind of arbitrarily a little bit. Just thinking about what, because it's like joy is now [00:11:45] your KP.

ou have called that feeling? [: 00:12:00

Sarah Gromley: success. Achievement and success and measurable outcomes. The jobs, the titles, salaries, these things that it's like, yes, that you are progressing.

Because I always assumed if [: 00:12:15

And it was like, where's the good stuff? Where is the joy?

Music: Mm-hmm.

perience with my experience, [: 00:13:00

So, you know, it just, it all happened to me in such a way over time [00:13:15] that once the work of therapy started and I started to understand myself more. That's when I, um, started to understand like, I don't need the big corporate job. I'm still me without that. In fact, I might be a better [00:13:30] me without that. So we'll see.

I mean, I'm 52, I'll be 53, so I would go back for the right thing, and I think I would have a different experience in a corporate setting Now.

Aransas Savas: Yeah, I was [: 00:13:45

And I think we all [00:14:00] say, I'm not saying no forever. I'm saying no for now.

look at that? Yes. Will I be [: 00:14:15

Can we talk more about the financial piece of it? Yes.

money or because they were a [: 00:14:45

Sarah Gromley: I just miss the money. I miss having a lot of money coming in on a regular basis,

Aransas Savas: just the money.

do this. Now again, I'm very [: 00:15:00

Did what the email, the deck, the, no thank you. [00:15:30] I'm good. But I'm so different now that if I did go back into some corporate setting, I think. I would have a much bigger sense of humor about all of that nonsense. [00:15:45]

Aransas Savas: I don't know. Yeah, it's an interesting point if that's really the change there, right? Like just giving fewer fucks about it.

ot of the big tech companies [: 00:16:00

And then they can't get out and then they have kids and the golden handcuffs. I mean it really, it's a thing and it's not just tech, but that was just happened to be my last job. [00:16:30] I do miss, I miss camaraderie. Yeah. I think I miss teams. I do miss, I miss talking to people in the office and mentoring people.

on LinkedIn in the past week [: 00:16:45

Aransas Savas: I imagine though you're doing more of that now even because you're just being more [00:17:00] transparent and broad in your mentorship.

Your book is a mentoring of sorts, of a way of being and growing,

ue. I have a young woman who [: 00:17:15

I mean, I love [00:17:30] doing book clubs and events, but it's usually like really touching, meaningful conversation over the course of a couple of hours. And then I. I dunno, it's none of it's there. It's trade offs.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. [: 00:17:45

Sarah Gromley: Yes.

ad was about, it was about a [: 00:18:00

And it's sort of not about that, but I went into it. Expecting that book, and I started reading it 30 days after my mother figure died.

Sarah Gromley: Oh my goodness.

as Savas: My grandmother who [: 00:18:30

Entering your story was sort of the lens of a number of [00:18:45] other mother loss stories I've heard on this podcast from incredible women, and so many of them actually follow a fairly similar, though unique trajectory of in losing my parent, I was transformed [00:19:00] and some of them, you know, Kate Tellers from the Moth decided to.

ded to build her life around [: 00:19:15

Sarah Gromley: Well, a couple things. So what you described as me coming home to Ohio to be with my dying mother, right? That is the [00:19:45] storyline, that's the container of a timeframe. Yes. The story beneath the story is the emotional journey. But the therapy had started five years before I went to the farm, so I [00:20:00] was ready for change because I had learned to be kinder to myself.

arned that my job was not my [: 00:20:15

Yes, there's the sadness and the grief of the loss, but it pushes you to take stock of your own [00:20:45] life, you know? Period. I say that Mom's death was a catalyst, but it was only a catalyst because I was ready for it to be a catalyst. Mm-hmm. There is another version of this story, which would not [00:21:00] be a book because I wouldn't have had time to write the book if it had timed out differently, and it had been two years before or three years before, I would've probably been on a plane back to New York at another big job.

I knew I was taking a [: 00:21:15

I have this art gallery. I'm living in Columbus, Ohio. Very different life, [00:21:45] but it wasn't simply or. Singly because of her death. Does that make sense?

Aransas Savas: It was an accelerant.

Sarah Gromley: Yes.

Aransas Savas: The timing, of course, was remarkable that you had gotten laid off just before.

h Gromley: That was all very [: 00:22:00

I'm like, really? I just told you my mom's dying. This is what we're doing. That's you're cool. Thanks. Yeah. But whatever.

book is The Order of Things [: 00:22:15

Sarah Gromley: Yes. Or some other big job, or, you know?

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

g back, if I think about the [: 00:22:30

Chronologically, it's about [00:23:00] taking look. The magnitude of certain relationships, interactions, decisions, belief in yourself. And so, yeah, I'd never thought about it that way until you just asked, so thank you.

Aransas Savas: Just hearing [: 00:23:15

And that wasn't a fit. And then it was finding the fit in David.

all it trickle down therapy. [: 00:23:30

It's not the right [00:23:45] person as a reason not to go to therapy. Just can't find the right person. It's a lot like dating. All of a sudden, when you're emotionally healthy and right with yourself, there's the love, just like all the fucking songs say [00:24:00] Right, but Right. You know, it's like, oh, love yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

who was not a good fit. And [: 00:24:15

If you're in pain at all and emotional suffering, go talk to someone, ask for help. But I thought, well, look, I'm so, I'm so high functioning. I have all these great [00:24:45] friends. I have this beautiful apartment, what am I bitching about? And if the book does anything for a few people, it's worth it. I know it has.

py after they read it and it [: 00:25:00

So pain is pain. There's no order of that. Yours matters.

, I have to guess, you still [: 00:25:30

Sarah Gromley: No, it's just, it's just happiness and joy all the time. No, I have my moments. I just know how to manage myself, and I find that I can be in a funk for [00:25:45] about two days now.

And then I'm like, yeah, that's enough of that. Let's take a look at what really happened and move it along. Congratulations.

Aransas Savas: Can you explain how you do that now and, and what it looks and sounds like in your head?

Sarah Gromley: Oh, so [: 00:26:00

So my mom had to come. I got kicked outta school for the day. And so Scott Kennedy, the voice is the voice that [00:26:15] says The gallery's not successful enough. My book isn't good. You're kind of fat. You can blame menopause, but God, Sarah, if you really took better care of yourself, you would look better. That talk.

And it's there. And [: 00:26:30

You know, take out the issues and look 'em over and decide what matters and what doesn't. That's it. Right? And it's like, you know what? Today, you know it's not gonna matter today that these jeans are a [00:27:00] little too tight. I'm not letting that wreck my day.

Aransas Savas: I can buy some more jeans too, by the way, and I

Sarah Gromley: can buy some more jeans and tuck it.

I'm just. I rainbows all day [: 00:27:15

And that's gone.

Music: Mm-hmm.

reated space for writing and [: 00:27:45

My body's like, girl, [00:28:00] can you believe it? Can you believe this is your life?

cause I don't know any other [: 00:28:15

Whatever. It's self.

Sarah Gromley: It's like being nice to yourself. God, we're all so hard on ourselves all

Aransas Savas: of the time.

Sarah Gromley: Time.

o damn fragile because we're [: 00:28:30

Sarah Gromley: Also, it's very specific to certain types of women as well, like

: rampant. It is an achiever [: 00:28:45

You wanna [00:29:00] have moments of deep joy. You wanna eat the hamburger, you wanna drink the martini, but not all of these things can coexist all the time, right? So if you step back and you ask yourself, what's really true for me that I care about most and I force rank and nothing gets a tie, [00:29:15] what do I really care more about?

it into for the last decade. [: 00:29:30

And I think for a lot of [00:29:45] people, as they get into, they find that this isn't. Really what I actually want, right, is more positional power.

ave freedom and time to open [: 00:30:00

If you are struggling with something, you can change your life. You can. [00:30:15] My life is not easy, but the hard things in life are so much easier. If you believe in yourself and you know you can handle things and you don't have the running loop of Scott Kennedy telling you you're a piece of shit, is there [00:30:30] anything that still scares you?

the writing of the book and [: 00:30:45

And that sort of scares me because this is a really cool chapter. Yeah. [00:31:00] But I also can't wait to see, I'm like, I dunno. Figure it out. Have a martini, take a nap.

e and you run and it's like, [: 00:31:15

But then it's like, where does all this energy go now?

t now, but I have some ideas [: 00:31:30

Aransas Savas: I'm really glad you decided to write this book and I'm really glad I got read it. So grateful

forward to seeing what you.

Sarah Gromley: [: 00:31:45

Aransas Savas: find me and read the book. Read the book. It's so good, or listen to it. Thank you for [00:32:00] listening to the Uplifters podcast. If you're getting a boost from these episodes.

ifterspodcast.com. Head over [: 00:32:15

Music (2): Mm ah.

Aransas Savas: Big

find it ing. Toss a star in [: 00:32:45

Music: Lift you up.

ft you up. Whoa. Lift you up.[: 00:33:15

Lift you up.

Lift you[: 00:33:30

lift.

ing you did with your voice, [: 00:33:45