Deesha Philyaw Doesn't Believe in Writer's Block or Imposter Syndrome and What to Ask if You Do

TUP EP 112

Aransas Savas: [: 00:00:00

The Secret Lives of [00:00:30] Church Ladies literally swept every major literary award winning the Penn Faulkner Award, the story prize, the LA Times Book Prize, and a for the National Book Award. But beyond Accolade, something [00:00:45] stories. Secret expansiveness of women who dare to be truer to themselves. What strikes me most about Deisha in this conversation is how she's turned her own journey of [00:01:00] breaking free from expectations both internal and external, into a real lesson in authentic living.

hings like writer's block or [: 00:01:15

Y'all, this conversation is so, so good and so full of incredible insights and I.[00:01:45]

Today.

Deesha Philyaw: Likewise. Thank you.

Aransas Savas: I loved your book.

Deesha Philyaw: Glad you.

an audio book. Mm-hmm. Which [: 00:02:00

Deesha Philyaw: Oh, fun. I love

Aransas Savas: that. Did some laundry.

Made some breakfast.

mpany. They're good company. [: 00:02:15

Aransas Savas: Excellent company. So when did you know you were gonna write about the Secret Lives of Church Ladies? I feel like I've always been

rst church lady, I wanted to [: 00:02:30

But a lot of the characters and the ideas that came to me in that early, early, those early, early efforts, it was really me, fictionalizing some of the stuff that I was going through. And it was [00:02:45] having done everything right because I was, for the most part, a church girl. I followed all the rules, but I still wasn't happy and I wasn't feeling the things that I had been taught that you should feel if you are a true [00:03:00] evangelical Christian.

ecret way of dealing with my [: 00:03:15

Women who were inside and outside of the church who had always been very [00:03:30] curious about how they navigated the world given the, the churches, the restrictions and hypocrisies.

ether it was just because it [: 00:03:45

Mm-hmm. Or if it was indeed the core through line was this desire to expand beyond Yes. The limitations. Yes. And to be truer to yourself. Yes, absolutely. Than to [00:04:00] the rules.

about, the pursuit of that, [: 00:04:15

For the last, you know, 25 or so years. And so I was writing short stories and then in 2007 I got the idea for a novel, but I kept writing stories and I was stalled on the novel. And then my [00:04:30] ex-husband and I wrote a nonfiction book on co-parenting, and that's how I landed an agent. And my agent knew that I also had this novel that I've been working on for years.

er you're ready. To see that [: 00:04:45

And that felt more possible, more doable than finished this novel than I've been like schlepping around. For so many years. And [00:05:15] so that's what turned my attention and, and got me intentional about building a collection, was my agent's advice.

hat you have broken out past [: 00:05:30

Yes. Both external and internal maybe?

Deesha Philyaw: Yeah.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm. In a lot of ways,

I was not actively grappling [: 00:05:45

My mother died of breast cancer in 2005 and thank you, and almost a decade when I was starting to write the stories, there was still. Sort of unfinished business between my mother and myself that shows up in those stories. [00:06:15] My mother was my biggest critic. She felt diminished by me. I remember one time I was in my thirties and she said, I finally figured out the word to describe how you've made me feel your whole life.

, I don't think I wanna hear [: 00:06:30

Aransas Savas: Oh,

Deesha Philyaw: what do you do with

aying is it was her own that [: 00:06:45

Honestly, I hadn't ever heard it until a guest early on in the show said it, and she was quoting another writer who says, [00:07:00] teach from your scars, not your wounds.

Deesha Philyaw: Ooh. Yeah.

Aransas Savas: Right. Yes. And it sounds like you were largely writing about scars at that point.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Thank you for giving me that language.

It's pretty [: 00:07:15

Aransas Savas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:30] So let's talk about some of the ways you have moved beyond expectations.

he expectation came from you [: 00:07:45

Deesha Philyaw: me at an early age, like too late for us. But she can be salvaged kind of situation.

Aransas Savas: Same. [: 00:08:00

What was that? I dunno. I mean, my grandparents were raising me. Mm-hmm. And I think they were like, we have done that, showing up for church.

yaw: What? That's why. Okay. [: 00:08:15

I didn't give anybody any trouble. And so the expectations weren't necessarily around churchy things. What I got from my mom, and I think this was the whole intimidation [00:08:45] thing, was that I dared to be a different person than she was. And because of her wounds, which were not scars, she took that personally.

ked, then she felt judged by [: 00:09:00

I would have to be a whole other person. It was things like other girls, their moms were like, don't wear makeup. This would've been the eighties. Right? And so girls my age were like sneaking in [00:09:30] the bathroom at school, putting on makeup, taking it off before they went home. My mother was like, glamor girl.

e gonna talk about you. If I [: 00:09:45

Aransas Savas: Mm. Right.

th [: 00:10:00

Aransas Savas: I feel like you were gonna go to Claire's and glamor shots in the mall in this scenario,

other's thing, not my thing. [: 00:10:15

And I was like, no, no. And I was like, I would just like some books. And she's like, that's boring. She just kept insisting, insisting. And I kept saying no. And then finally she said, you should wear makeup, [00:10:30] which to say to a 13-year-old girl. It's devastating and it just made me feel. Even more insecure and self-conscious than I already did.

like that, it was really my [: 00:10:45

Stay in Florida. My mom and my grandmother lived together their entire lives. I knew I needed to get outta that house and not live there again. And so I started sort of setting those things up for myself and then in [00:11:15] the back of my mind where the church's expectations, because that's what indoctrination is.

I didn't carry a lot of the [: 00:11:30

But I'm [00:11:45] grateful for that because I think for a lot of women and black women in particular, that fear of condemnation. In the afterlife, but also the condemnation they got on in this life, it really [00:12:00] broke them, their bodies, their spirits, or both. And so I never had to contend with that because something just never added up for me with Christianity.

was in my thirties and I got [: 00:12:15

Aransas Savas: When you had that realization and I sort of catalyzing moments, right?

-hmm. What did you decide to [: 00:12:45

Deesha Philyaw: five years before my mom died? That was around the time where I was like.

w and time. Did you identify [: 00:13:00

And so it was in those early two thousands when I was starting that process. Starting writing, and then in 2005, the same year that my [00:13:30] mom died and my grandmother and. I got separated and then we divorced the following year. So now I need, I mean, you know, I had been a stay at home mom, so it was like, Ooh, I've gotta, you know, figure out how to make a living.

And I thought, I'm gonna [: 00:13:45

It allowed me to even be able to. I wanted to make a [00:14:15] living as a writer. And so it was, okay, so I'm gonna try and make a living at this. There's nothing else I wanna do. And if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna write what I wanna write. 'cause again, it's like, why? Spend. Spend the one life I get doing something [00:14:30] I don't wanna do, I wanna write.

And then why spend that time writing something that makes other people happy or you know, is playing scared or is playing safe. I'm not gonna do that either.

gh, right? To feel that that [: 00:14:45

Mm-hmm. And say, I'm gonna be on my. My gifts and my passion. There had to have been moments that were scary in there. How did you [00:15:00] keep, oh yeah. How did you keep showing up for yourself again and again

Deesha Philyaw: in the midst of so much uncertainty and you know, in, as you know, in writing publication is just rejection.

one goes into writing to get [: 00:15:15

First. It was this novel I had been working on since 2007, and then my agent convinced me to shift [00:15:45] gears to the short story, and, and so it became a singular focus. Finish the book depending on what year it was. Which book am I talking about? And I'm doing all these other jobs. I'm raising children. I got remarried, I got divorced.[00:16:00]

now exactly what I wanna do. [: 00:16:15

Aransas Savas: One of the things that strikes me is there's a massive difference between saying you're writing a work of [00:16:30] fiction. Mm-hmm. And actually carving out time. Yes. Day after day after year after year. And fitting that into all the other things that life involves.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes. And [: 00:16:45

Yeah, because I could, I have never been a writer that writes every day. Just haven't.

hrough the ebbs and the flow [: 00:17:00

Deesha Philyaw: is being with myself. Believe in for myself, things like writer's block or imposter syndrome, like those things, you don't believe in them.

're layers. They're just the [: 00:17:15

Okay. Or imposter syndrome, who am I, da, da, da. And it's because I'm afraid of outshining this person because we have this dysfunctional relationship that depends on me playing [00:17:45] small. There's always something. But when we stop at writer's block or imposter syndrome, we're not interrogating it. And when you interrogate it and it's an actual thing that you can address either in therapy or in some other way, then it.[00:18:00]

lem solve this. And so a lot [: 00:18:15

I've always had people in my corner and knowing when you need what, sometimes just to keep going, you need a [00:18:30] cheerleader. Somebody who is like, they just love you and they love everything. You write and then, and then you're like, I don't wanna give up because I wanna be who you think I am. Mm, yes. But those people are not good critique partners, so [00:18:45] sometimes you need a.

our life. Writers, we do our [: 00:19:00

So having critique partners over the years, being part of writers groups, gonna writers retreats and conferences doing. Co-working sessions on Zoom with other writers [00:19:15] where we come on, we say hello, and we just start working. And if people come into the room, we say hi in the chat and then we go back to work and everybody's doing their own thing.

It's something about having [: 00:19:30

Aransas Savas: I'm a huge believer in that. I host a. [00:19:45] Coworking session every Friday morning that I call the Cocoon, and it's for the folks who sponsor this podcast.

nizing her paperwork mm-hmm. [: 00:20:00

Yes. Then we take a break to get out our heads and into our bodies, and we do a one song dance party. Oh, I love it. Highly recommend. And then we go back in mm-hmm. To the cocoon for an hour and it just [00:20:30] blows my mind every time. Mm-hmm. How, just the power of supportive accountability. Yes. Yes. Shifts the way that we show up for ourselves and what really matters.

bout my friend Tammy Winfrey [: 00:20:45

One of us said like, let's have a video call and catch up this weekend. And somebody said, well, I'm not gonna have a bra. And none was like, me neither. And so we just call it free range. I dunno. And so it's this similar [00:21:15] dynamic with yours that like somebody's cleaning out their fridge or, or cabinets or answering email or you know, whatever it is.

But we're doing it alone together.

m always says that she heard [: 00:21:30

I cleaned and did [00:21:45] laundry. Mm-hmm. You hung out with me and told me stories and you made it fun.

ly. Taking care of homes and [: 00:22:00

That's not to say that I'm saying that women are naturally good at that or that they should, but when women were doing those tasks, often it was with other women and, and I think when we're doing that work, we're not meant to do it in isolation. [00:22:15] When I was a stay at home mom. There were some women who would do this thing where I come to your house with my kids and with other moms, and like some moms are watching the kids and the other moms are cleaning that one house, and then we go to someone else's house.

And I think we've [: 00:22:30

Aransas Savas: box. What you said about your free range thing is the other session we have every week. So every Monday I get this group of women together and we just set our intentions for the week. [00:22:45] Mm. I love that. While we do the thing.

Yes. So it's like if I wanna eat healthy for the week, I am meal prepping and Yes. Like getting all the vegetables peeled.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes,

Savas: that's it. Bring this [: 00:23:00

Deesha Philyaw: sometimes. In a communal way, but I think just for time management purposes, talking, you know, just catching up with friends. I'm usually doing some [00:23:15] housework when that's happening, or I'm going for a walk or something, you know, something that doesn't require a lot of brain power for me so I can actually listen to my friends, but I'm multitasking.

a meal while I'm talking to. [: 00:23:30

Aransas Savas: I think the misunderstanding about multitasking is people say now, they're like, oh, it's impossible to multitask. Yes, it is impossible to do two things that are the same at once.

Deesha Philyaw: Right?

Aransas Savas: So I can't [: 00:23:45

Because it's using the same part of my brain. While using my ears. Oh, that we are actually hardwired to do.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes, [: 00:24:00

Aransas Savas: perfect sense. It turns on more centers of our brain so we can be more creative. Right. We can be more connected. We can listen more deeply.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yes. [: 00:24:15

Deesha Philyaw: Yes.

ing for it to become a thing [: 00:24:30

Deesha Philyaw: I've been lucky. My agent sold them both and wow. The harder sell was, the first one was Church Ladies. Nobody wanted it except West Virginia University Press, and I'm so thankful you know that they had a vision for [00:24:45] it and they saw, you know, what it could be, and, and they really believed in it.

is, I finished it like, wow. [: 00:25:00

I didn't get a huge advance by any [00:25:15] stretch of the imagination, but it was successful in terms of how it was received, in terms of getting award and things like that.

Aransas Savas: Your book got like every possible award a book could get.

Everyone we got, I mean, we [: 00:25:30

You know, just those freaking bonkers. Yes, it truly bonkers.

Aransas Savas: Yes,

Deesha Philyaw: yes, yes.

in making that happen beyond [: 00:25:45

Deesha Philyaw: Nothing. And I wanna just emphasize that, that this business is not a meritocracy. We all we can do is our best work on the page. Everything that happens after that is luck marketing and [00:26:00] promotion and timing and all of that.

the writing part of this is [: 00:26:15

Awesome. That to me, I've succeeded. Now I've written a [00:26:30] book that I love. I hope other people love it too. But what happens after that? I have no control over it. And then the second part of that is then to be onto the next project.

Aransas Savas: Hmm.

hat's gonna happen with this.[: 00:26:45

And just always be working on something new. And that's the multitasking thing too, you know, working on multiple projects at once.

ing feels sort of wrapped or [: 00:27:00

You make the thing, you get the agent, you finish the book, you get the.[00:27:15]

Like what

een working on. So like when [: 00:27:30

I was like, I think I know how to write this novel now. So I wasn't starting something new. I was like getting to finally go back to [00:27:45] something that alluded me at that point for 13 years. And so I right into. I then sold that book two summers ago, but at the same time, I've been working on television [00:28:00] projects.

hort story collection that I [: 00:28:15

And then there's a YA novel idea that I started. I have like eight pages of written, so it's like these things are waiting for me [00:28:30] to come back. So I feel like it's like next, next,

Aransas Savas: next. What do you say to yourself about having all these projects, right? Mm-hmm. Because I think there's a part of our brain that can be like, huh, I should be working on everything.

Or, oh, I should be the person who focuses on just one thing all the

Deesha Philyaw: [: 00:28:45

I. I spent so much time making the schedule and I didn't do any of the things on the schedule, so I did [00:29:15] that for years and it was just like whack-a-mole. I'm just bouncing from thing to thing, and so then I just started doing something a little different. I have a calendar like everybody has, but I also have my schedule, which is a Google [00:29:30] Docs, and it's organized by day of the week, Monday, Tuesday.

t I wanna do, and I'd made a [: 00:29:45

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Deesha Philyaw: Let me put two and then if I get those two done, what's on Tuesday?

at. That never happened, so, [: 00:30:00

Another day, but it is gone and today I did [00:30:30] everything that I needed to do today. Mm-hmm. It's just something about that sort of visual that took so much pressure off. Now of course that means I look at multiple calendars, but that doesn't bother me. Mm-hmm. My brain works like that better than [00:30:45] a single calendar with things on it on that day, and then I'm like constantly looking at, you know, all these things where it's like, no, I'm just at.

Now I'm looking at my Tuesdays.

iant. And I, I call 'em the, [: 00:31:00

Yes. But what really matters.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes. [: 00:31:15

Aransas Savas: And I think so much of your life now has been built to answer that question for yourself. Yes. So it's like the mountain was mm-hmm. Chosen and then Yeah, the boulders were defined and then now you're at the [00:31:30] stage of the rocks. And so then yeah, that means some pebbles are gonna support the rocks and some pebbles are gonna get flicked off into the ocean.

ng to disappoint people. Mm. [: 00:31:45

And like, it's hard right now, but you know, six months from now, Deisha is gonna thank me that I said no. So I didn't have to be at this thing that I didn't wanna be at anyway. And it's not even, I need to be home doing my work or I need to be home doing [00:32:15] laundry. Sometimes it's, I need to be home doing nothing.

Aransas Savas: Mm. Like

to back. Like I try not to. [: 00:32:30

I try not to schedule myself like that. And so sometimes I can't do things because in order to do it, I'd have to rush. So I'm like, I. [00:32:45]

Aransas Savas: And I think for so many of us, the reason we say yes is just 'cause we've always said yes. Yes. And like we don't even know how to say no. Right. And we say yes so quickly that then we, it's like takes 80,000 more steps to figure out how to undo the Yes, yes.

just say Yes. Yes. Might as [: 00:33:00

Deesha Philyaw: It goes back to that I get this one life, and so it was, you know, what are the things I absolutely have to do? And especially when you're raising kids, your life and your [00:33:15] free time is driven by their schedules.

Mm-hmm. But having a co-parenting situation, I had a schedule where there were times where my children were not.

And get my work done, [: 00:33:30

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Deesha Philyaw: And so being able to help them

Aransas Savas: get the thing done that they want done,

hat I ever like conquered it [: 00:33:45

Aransas Savas: I actually think those questions you just asked so specifically are real, [00:34:15] are relatable for most people. Mm-hmm. Is this what really matters? Is this what matters right now? Mm-hmm. What's the trade off here?

to think about, because I'm [: 00:34:30

Now sometimes I say yes. Sometimes it's just like I'm a lark. I try to be more spontaneous because I'm not, but other time, most of the time it'll be like something in the future. And it seems harmless enough to say yes, [00:34:45] but I've learned enough. I've had been through this enough to know I'm gonna love that when that day comes.

I don't have to do all of that.

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

ing that I don't want to. Is [: 00:35:00

Aransas Savas: Mm-hmm.

Deesha Philyaw: And that I don't owe anybody else an explanation for why I don't do something. I only have to answer to myself. And so if I'm like, I just don't wanna, okay. I'm not gonna,

Savas: yeah. I mean, I have [: 00:35:15

Mm-hmm. And so I sort of temper them with. Will this help me grow in some way? Yeah. Right. 'cause I do wanna grow. Yeah. I do wanna challenge myself. Exactly. I do wanna expose myself to new [00:35:30] experiences. It all just boils down to slowing. Yes. The damn yes. Down.

Deesha Philyaw: Yes. And does it fit? Because you know, you're saying yes to that thing that makes you uncomfortable because it fits some larger thing.

You wanna, how you [: 00:35:45

Aransas Savas: Viss [00:36:00] nominated you for the Uplifters. Thank you Viss, and oh, she's amazing, and here's what she's had.

that keep Bipoc writers from [: 00:36:15

Deesha Philyaw: Oh my God, thank.

Aransas Savas: That feels better than being admired by the people we admire,

on to her tremendous talent. [: 00:36:45

This business can be a little hard [00:37:00] scrabble at times, and she's just so above it all, and so I'm always trying to like be like her.

Aransas Savas: Mm.

e's, she's the wild, she's a [: 00:37:15

Aransas Savas: have some of the best times.

sentence when she says that [: 00:37:30

Deesha Philyaw: I try not to hoard information. I'm always. Sharing resources and [00:37:45] opportunities with people. If you've ever been in my classes or mentee, like I'm always sending you things.

ng writers, especially bipoc [: 00:38:00

So if I pass on something, if I have the opportunity to [00:38:15] recommend or nominate someone else, I do that. And finally, I consider judging like competitions and literary prizes to be a kind of community service. The judging panel needs to look as. Be as diverse as the submissions that we get. [00:38:30] Mm-hmm. So even though it takes away from my time with my own work, I've been doing a lot of judging and a lot of reading.

I feel like I know them. And [: 00:38:45

People talk about it like a ladder. People like Ki [00:39:00] Layman climbed a ladder. He didn't pull it up after himself. He left it down so people like me could climb up and so we it down so people climb. I think that's what she meant.

's really, really beautiful. [: 00:39:15

Yes. And creating the containers to, for community and interrogation and all of [00:39:30] these aspects that were so in service.

n people reach out on social [: 00:39:45

And so someone took a workshop with me once and then he reached out and said, he asked me for feedback. And I said, I don't have the bandwidth to do that, but if you sign up and take a workshop with me, that's a [00:40:00] way that I can be. Available to you to give feedback. So he signed up, took a work, another workshop with me, and the next thing I know he was going get his MFA.

n the next thing I know, I'm [: 00:40:15

I love witnessing that, so I couldn't give him what he initially asked for. And from the vast majority of [00:40:45] people, I can't be a reader for them, but I can be an encourager, I can be a resource, I can be a connector.

Aransas Savas: I love that. And, and there's so many levels to it that I think teach us mm-hmm. About this practice.

one is of course, from your [: 00:41:00

Right? But I think what we [00:41:30] hear from his side of this story is ask the question, right? You may not get exactly the answer you expect, but you actually make it something that's more sustain, right? Yeah. Really, really wonderful lessons in there. I am so [00:41:45] excited to have met you. I'm so excited to read the novel.

When it comes

these stories, I'm like, meet these people. I wanna see. Who they are and how they love.

Deesha Philyaw: [: 00:42:00

Aransas Savas: I know I will.

I know I [: 00:42:15

Deesha Philyaw: follow me on Substack? Okay. Because one of the things that I include, I'm so bullish on Substack.

Aransas Savas: Yes, obsessed.

of the things that I try to [: 00:42:30

That's awesome. Deisha. Yeah, I just put the cover, book cover and sometimes if I have time I can put a little [00:42:45] description, but us, sometimes it's just the book cover and the link to bookshop.org because then you're also supporting indie bookstores when you use book shops, and it just makes it easy for people to pre-order.

and I will totally do that. [: 00:43:00

Deesha Philyaw: I nominate Mahogany L Brown. Tell me why. Oh my gosh. So like, so she's just, first of all, she's legendary. I knew of her [00:43:15] before I ever got to know her, and as I do now as a friend, as a sister.

know, she's in the YA space, [: 00:43:30

But as I mentioned, like, you know, it could be those good books, but are they good people? She is everything that Clavis said about me supporting writers. [00:44:00] Mo does that exponentially and is. Eternally gracious, patient, insightful. She has a vision and she's just bringing [00:44:15] people along and beyond the literary world.

was initially short term and.[: 00:44:30

There are so many of us who can say we stood on a Lincoln Center stage because of mahogany. And so I describe her, and you imagine this [00:44:45] person who is larger than life, and she is, but she also has a tender heart, and you don't always get that. You don't always get a person who's still in touch with being kind and being thoughtful.

[: 00:45:00

Aransas Savas: Amazing, amazing. I can't wait to meet her. I'm excited. I'm excited. Thank you [00:45:15] so much, Deisha, for your story, your work, your wisdom, and all that you're doing in the world. Thank

Deesha Philyaw: you. This has been such a fun conversation.

e getting a boost from these [: 00:45:30

Music: Big love [00:46:00] painted water, sunshine with rosemary, and I'm dwelling, perplexing. You find it.

Love for relish in a new [: 00:46:15

Lift you up ball,[00:46:30]

lift you up.

Lift you up.

Lift up,[: 00:46:45

lift. You

lift,

lift.[: 00:47:00

Um, beautiful. I cried. It's that little thing you did with your voice, right? In the preco, right? Uh, Uhhuh. I was like, [00:47:15] mommy, stop crying. Mommy. Stop crying. You're disturbing the peace.