How Good Morning America's Catherine McKenzie Is Redefining Leadership in TV News

Aransas: [: 00:00:00

She's one of those people that just. Lights up every room that she enters. No matter how big her job gets, how many amazing, impressive people [00:00:45] she interacts with, she makes everyone who meets her feel at home and safe and warm. She's one of those people that makes everyone feel like the most important person in their world.

Good Morning America and ABC [: 00:01:00

But if you ask her about her success metric, she's not going to talk to you about rating. She's going to talk to you about kindness. Seriously, in an industry that is Known for [00:01:30] cutthroat intensity, Kat has built her career on the radical notion that you can be both successful and kind. Kat's going to open up about everything from navigating the moments when people [00:01:45] disappoint you because let's face it, we will always be disappointed and we will always be a disappointment.

o build a work culture where [: 00:02:00

So grab a cup of coffee and join us [00:02:15] for a conversation about what it really looks like to lead with your whole heart. Even when the stakes are high and the cameras are rolling, I am so freaking glad that you're here and that I get to hear your voice again today.

ne: I am so honored that you [: 00:02:30

This is exciting.

what lit me up, but I really [: 00:02:45

And I [00:03:00] knew pretty early on that one of the most important things we were going to talk about was It's how we take care of ourselves while doing good in the world because it can be exhausting, right? To pour into everyone else as an uplifter. What I didn't [00:03:15] anticipate that we were going to talk about so much was courage.

ou ask and then to follow up [: 00:03:30

I love that. And so as I was thinking about this conversation with you specifically, I guess the first thing I want to ask you is, like, [00:04:00] when in your life? Do you feel like you've had to draw on the most courage?

t? But I feel like there are [: 00:04:15

I think for me, like the most courage comes when I'm disappointed when an organization or A coworker or a friend has disappointed me and trying to go back into all the things that we [00:04:30] read about, right? It's not you, it's them, you know, what's going on in their life. Everyone has something going on with them, right?

it's then having the courage [: 00:04:45

[00:05:00] And someone who I thought had the power to either back me up or make it happen, didn't. And so then it's like a double whammy, you know, you're like, Oh, this thing didn't happen. And this person that I thought I had in my corner. And sometimes like that person still is in your corner, just not in the way they [00:05:15] show up in different ways.

ose people in our lives that [: 00:05:30

So, I think for me, courage comes in those times when you've [00:05:45] been really disappointed and how do you get up and go the next way and how do you chart the next path forward? How do you decide whether to give up on whether that thing was and are you charting a new course or is it, hey, it's just not time for that, but I'm going to keep that in the back of my mind because we're going to come back to that.[00:06:00]

Aransas: Yeah. What do you say to yourself in those moments?

od reporter did one of those [: 00:06:15

And the way he framed it was, he was like, when everyone's complimenting you and telling you you're great, this too shall pass. When you make a mistake and [00:06:30] everyone's telling you you're the worst things, this too shall pass. Right? And in having that kind of mindset, I mean, look, there are going to be some things that are earth shattering to the core, right?

e hard to say this too shall [: 00:06:45

And I think what's really been coming to me the last, I was just talking to a friend about this last week, It feels like, and I don't know if it's the age that we're at or the state of the [00:07:15] world, that no day is either all good or all bad.

Music: Mm hmm.

Catherine: I feel like in the last three weeks, I've had these days where there have been like incredible things happen, right?

but then something else has [: 00:07:30

And that's kind of even harder, I think, to react to, because it's easy if you have a bad day to just [00:07:45] go home, sit on the couch, and be like, Today's a bad day. I'm gonna watch some TV. I'm gonna eat some ice cream. Tomorrow will be a better day. And it's easy when it's a great day to be like, let's pour the champagne, let's celebrate.

But when it's kind of a medium day, you kind of don't know what to do, right?

s: Right. Well, and it's not [: 00:08:00

And it was this big research project that was done [00:08:15] years ago by a university that explored the way people communicated and remembered their family histories. And so basically, the people who thought of their family histories as like, oh, we came over on the boat and [00:08:30] everything was wonderful, or the ones who were like, we came over on the boat and everything was horrible, those people were significantly less happy than the people who said, we came over on the boat, there were good times, there were bad times.

, it's like that capacity to [: 00:08:45

He said, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody knows that about Kat. I was like, but what else? [00:09:15] Really like speaks to the core of who she is, not that kindness and joy aren't just like your essence. He said, it's her ability. Seem at ease. in any moment among any group of people. [00:09:30] I love that. I love that. He was like, she leads without this sense of hierarchy, without this sense of difference, but with a deep ability to connect [00:09:45] with people from all different walks of life.

And I thought that was such a beautiful way to describe who you are in the world. That's a

Catherine: very lovely thing for him to say, very kind, very kind.

d I think anybody who's ever [: 00:10:00

Catherine: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny a couple years ago.

e I think that there is this [: 00:10:15

And I think that There is a unabiding faith and it's not [00:10:30] necessarily, you know, for some it's religious, for some it's spiritual, for some it's just a faith in the universe, that like, if you do good things, good things are going to come back to you, and I firmly believe that. I also firmly believe that there is good in kind of everybody.

[: 00:10:45

That doesn't mean that you're a pushover, it does mean you still have to set boundaries. All those things still come into play in that, but I think if you [00:11:15] come at it, from a sense of positivity or from a sense of that we're all kind of rowing the boat in the same direction. And that like generally is just like in life.

re of what they have to take [: 00:11:30

Television news, it's like, you know, there's the right brain of you that you're a timer and you're an organizer and you're gonna get the crews out and you're timing a rundown and all that stuff. But then there's this left brain tug of like, I want it to be creative and Interesting. And I want to add music [00:12:00] and I want the piece to look like this and I want the show to look like this and the graphic and this and that.

re very like, cookie cutter, [: 00:12:15

And I think knowing that at the end, all those people just kind of want the same thing. It's how do you play to their [00:12:30] strengths, right? Whether it's in leadership, you can't have a team of all one way, right? You need kind of both. And I think You know, I've learned this so much in like doing what we do for a living, being a television news producer, because it is a team [00:12:45] sport and look, there are things I'm really, really good at.

le on my team who are really [: 00:13:00

And they're being so good at it makes me a better executive producer because everything's more organized or this or that and knowing how to kind of assign people. Um, but also letting those people work with people that aren't like them. So we're getting the best product. [00:13:15] And I think life is kind of the same way.

ething I think that's really [: 00:13:30

When you do your gratitude, it's got to be something that you're grateful for that happened the last 24 hours. And that really changed my mindset. When you get up in the morning, you [00:13:45] know, it's easy to be like, you know, I'm grateful for my friends and then like move on with the day. But if you have to think about the last 24 hours, what's one or two things that you're grateful for that really boils it down to like, we're just taking it one day at a time.

, for me at least, takes the [: 00:14:00

Aransas: key.

ion something different than [: 00:14:30

And I hear it in both the way you talk about. disappointment, [00:14:45] but also that success really is in connecting. It is in collaboration and playing to each other's strengths.

's losing that connection. I [: 00:15:00

I think it was three males and a female. And they got together every Tuesday night for dinner at six. They didn't work together. They were friends from wherever. It [00:15:15] wasn't like a four hour event. They had an hour dinner. They got caught up with each other and they left. Like, we don't do that anymore. And I think we're seeing the same thing in offices.

n as fast as we want them to [: 00:15:30

We're seeing all these things and I think with AI and all this stuff, how do we use the tools? but [00:15:45] not lose the humanity. Everyone wants to write better. Everyone wants their grammar checked. Everyone wants to get the cheap trip. You JetBG. But how do we not let those kinds of things replace the, Hey, I'm going to sit down with you and tell [00:16:00] you about my trip to Paris and all the different things I did as opposed to just getting a computer to do it for me, right?

crave it. And we'll find it [: 00:16:15

So I think the next like, five years especially between business and, and social [00:16:30] and how we're being social with each other is going to really be interesting to watch. And I kind of pushed some of my friends to go out and, you know, I think we're seeing the, the resurgence of book clubs and, you know, there's like a dad group that goes walking in Brooklyn that we just did a story on and [00:16:45] dinner clubs and you're seeing people go away from the dating sites and all these different things that I keep getting spammed with.

So I think, you know, it'll be very. interesting in the next five years to see kind of where we're at as a society.

gree. And I think everything [: 00:17:00

We all reinforced each other's belief systems. Living here in a town that has much more diverse [00:17:30] political and economic landscape, it's been so helpful, honestly. Because I think when you talk about difference, part of what I'm hearing is a reflection of my own experience here, which is this sense that [00:17:45] I realized I had in the back of my head.

aying, you're not safe here. [: 00:18:00

Catherine: I think, you know, one of the things I love is I'm on a couple of boards and I always say this, like when I go to like my, my school board meeting, like what [00:18:15] I love about it is no one's in television, no one even has a clue of what I do.

w are we making sure they're [: 00:18:30

And then we're talking about, you know, we have a building, and how do we take care of the building? Like, it's all these things that are, like, normal, everyday things, but you have this group of [00:18:45] people that have all these different experiences, from lawyers, doctors, people who send their kids to the school, you know, scholarship recipients, all of it, and together we come up with an idea of how to fix a problem, right?

And we don't always agree. [: 00:19:00

But that has nothing to do with political party, right? The people that believe the same thing as I believe that I don't want in my life at all because they're enemies, right? And you know, I think there, there are ways to, for [00:19:30] us as a, as communities to come together and figure out those things that we agree on and work on them and work on them together.

g that there are going to be [: 00:19:45

And that way, when there are the disagreements that come up, for whatever the reasons are, whether religious, political, just. [00:20:00] Disagreement, you're still seeing that person as a human. You know, one of the things that we started saying at work was we were coming out of the pandemic was just like, pick up and call somebody, go walk up to somebody, because we find that we're being short with each other.

king in the eye, right? It's [: 00:20:15

Aransas: Right. You're going to treat them like a human and not like an idea. Yep. So I think this translates very directly to how we create more powerfully diverse and inclusive workforces. And I know that's something you're [00:20:45] really passionate about. And even as you talk about playing to each other's strengths, how do you empower different voices

Catherine: and opinions?

e I am so big and gregarious [: 00:21:00

And then I think it's really important when we talk about is that. One of the things we try to practice is best idea always wins, no matter where that idea comes from. And if that idea comes from someone who's [00:21:30] more junior on the staff, how do we make sure that they're being able to follow their idea as it comes to fruition?

t the execution of that idea [: 00:21:45

I think when you can do that and when you work in a big organization, the other [00:22:00] thing that we try to do, we don't always succeed is like someone may have an idea that's not great for your section, right? Idea may work better in someone else's section. How do we get that idea to that other person? And then again, allow them the [00:22:15] experience of seeing it through, right?

It's easy in news, there's some stories that might be better for Nightline that aren't as good for GMA3. How are we making sure that Nightline gets it? And if they've decided to go with it, the person that actually, you know, thought about it on a different platform is being able to follow through and see it.

[: 00:22:30

And I'm not [00:22:45] perfect at it a lot of times, but it's just, it will tell you that I am, tend to be like at first kind of like, no, no, no, no. And then I listened to it again. And then I started to ask questions and then it's like breaking down the walls. I'm trying to be better at it. What I think surprises me the most [00:23:00] as a leader Because I consider myself such a, like, person of the people, is when people are like, well, we were afraid to tell you something.

eople still have that, well, [: 00:23:15

Like, you know, like, so it's reiterating, even with some people that have been with [00:23:30] me. I'm gonna show that I'm on for the last five years, like please come up with ideas. I might be a little hesitant at first, you gotta keep coming at me. Don't be afraid I'm gonna get mad. I'm never gonna get so mad that something bad's gonna happen.

one needs to be managed in a [: 00:23:45

[00:24:00] And so how do you mix those? Because you never want to make sure that the loudest people are the only ones being heard. Mm hmm. And that can be really easy to do, right? And so it's how do we fix that? It's not just me, like, I have a great leadership team underneath me that follows me to the fire every day.

[: 00:24:15

Aransas: Yeah. And I suspect, as you were saying, that [00:24:45] your message to them about what success looks like Is pretty unique. How do you describe that to your team?

as really, really because of [: 00:25:00

I was really strong when I started that our number one thing was gonna be kindness. I don't hire jerks. And we're going to be kind and in [00:25:15] the early time, it was calling out those instances and not like calling out in front of like 30 people, but like being like, Hey, I, you know, calling people aside and be like, I saw that email exchange.

, like your ideas are great, [: 00:25:30

But what [00:25:45] I'm really proud about is that, you know, we did it with kindness. And I think I end everything with that. I believe from experiences that I've had with some really famous people that you can tell the difference when it comes from the top down. And I've done some [00:26:00] really big interviews with some big people who were very kind and you can tell because every single person you deal with from their assistant down to the security guard treats you in a different way.

d that's why this experience [: 00:26:15

It allows people to not only show brilliance [00:26:30] and excellence, but also to compliment people that wouldn't necessarily always get complimented. Right. They're always number one on the call sheet or the anchor of the show or whatever. Trying to do all that. I hope we succeed. I think we do most days, but, you know, now it's like, how [00:26:45] are we keeping it going?

Right?

time, and yet the time keeps [: 00:27:00

Nobody got time to change.

and we had this company come [: 00:27:30

And I was like, but it's going to make X, Y, and Z better on the back. And they're like, this is extra work, we can't do it. And I had to like, if that's where we're at, that's where we're at. And then there are times that folks have Come at me and I've been [00:27:45] like, I don't know if that's going to work, but like, I have to think in my head and I have a sign in my old office and in my new office today, but it's a Bayard Rustin quote from the movie and I think it's, we will kill no idea before it's born and I try to keep that in my head so even when [00:28:00] I hear those ideas that kind of make your skin crawl, like, oh my God, this is never going to work, try to hear them out, try to figure out is there a way we can make it work, or maybe there's a way to twist it or turn it, or there's a part of it that's really good.

nk the other thing that I've [: 00:28:15

But that was especially being in our business, a really hard thing for me to be like, it's okay to take a minute or a day, like no one's like, if it's not something that's like [00:28:45] happening right now, it's going to be okay.

Aransas: That's a good filter too. If it's not happening right now, then it can wait. I was thinking about it.

ng in a pot, right? And like [: 00:29:00

Catherine: water and some heat. Sometimes if you just let it simmer, you come up with a different answer or someone else comes up with a different answer and you didn't even have [00:29:15] to, you don't have to take everything on.

visual and you don't need to [: 00:29:30

It's okay, like it's okay to take a minute. I love the vegetable idea because sometimes by the next day, either it's figured out or it's not as critical [00:29:45] or you're not as angry because that person said something crazy in the email and you can have a response that's kind and thoughtful as opposed to just like firing back.

So, and I always feel like when I do fire back too quickly, like I always regret it, you know.

Aransas: [: 00:30:00

And it's not the only skill. that we have.

eacting, reacting, reacting, [: 00:30:30

You spend all this day like answering, sending emails and texts on the phone. Then you get home and you're like, [00:30:45] oh, well now I have to think about that project that is due in two weeks because I really need to ideate on it and create. And now you suddenly work. 18 hours, through dinner, you haven't called your mom, you haven't talked to your best friend or your husband, you haven't hugged your [00:31:00] children, and you're just exhausted and cranky.

Yeah.

ke that kid who was like the [: 00:31:15

Catherine: No, I think I was just always like extroverted and loud.

, but there were three black [: 00:31:30

And I think just the more I got into it, I don't necessarily know if I would have called myself a leader until like three or four years ago. I never felt that. I think maybe I've grown into the title, but when you think about it, I've probably been leading all [00:32:00] the time. But for me, I think it was always just doing a good job and how do we get the job done and how do we bring the team together?

h them up. Half the quotes I [: 00:32:15

Aransas: It's in a way just a shift in perception. You were doing these things. All along, but then giving it another name, I think [00:32:30] also opens up the potential for you to say like, well, if I'm a leader, what else will I do?

so it's, it's being able to [: 00:32:45

Like, I'm here, I have this title for a reason, I'm in this meeting with like minded individuals who may have [00:33:00] bi title or higher titles, but I'm here for a reason. And am I making sure that the values that I have, that I think, you know, we should have as a group. And this is, whether it's work, whether it's a board that I'm on, are articulated, and we're doing the [00:33:15] right thing in the right manner, and we're doing right by all the people that need us to do right by them.

ean, I think the other thing [: 00:33:30

And so not everything can be the final sprint. And you have to balance it out. For some people that are young and passionate about what we do, it's hard to be [00:34:00] like, man, just let this one go because there's going to be a bigger one that we're going to need you for. Or let's keep this one in the bank. And it's finding this balance.

sure that, you know, you're [: 00:34:15

Whatever you wanna call it, like this is hard, this is [00:34:30] a lot, but it's important. If you wanna effect change, you gotta do these things.

Aransas: Mm hmm. And to stand up even if you don't feel totally comfortable or confident. Yes. In the how.

: The thing that I love, and [: 00:34:45

She said, I had to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, but not only that, I had to get comfortable with being comfortable. Doing my best work when I feel uncomfortable. [00:35:00] And that to me was like light bulb, right? It's like, I know I'm gonna have anxiety. I know I lost the last final I was in, but now I'm in the Australian final again.

I am uncomfortable as hell, but I am still gonna hit an ace.

Aransas: Uh huh.

therine: And I was like, Oh, [: 00:35:15

Even when I know it's not going my way, I still have to be the best for myself. And then if you're a leader, you know, for my [00:35:45] team, for my family, for my whatever.

Aransas: Well, I think probably what she's saying there is like, in those moments, I can't let all my thoughts get in the way of me being present.

Catherine: Yeah. In this moment.

Aransas: Yeah. And [: 00:36:00

My job is to just listen, always know what's right, if I can just stay in [00:36:30] listener mode. What are you saying to yourself or trying to do so that you can be your best self?

hink it's keeping the ego in [: 00:36:45

Okay, and I think the other thing is, I tell all the young people in my life they should be the power of now, is really being like, [00:37:00] it's not me. Like if someone's being mean to me, or if someone just spoke over me, or if someone like took my idea and said it in their own words but it was really my idea, it has nothing to do with me, it has more to do with them than it has to do with me.

ou get to take it personally [: 00:37:15

And, [00:37:30] and also realizing that sometimes it's okay to not have anything to say, right? Sometimes you walk into something and it's not what you thought it was or. We talk a lot about pre meetings, half the room had a pre meeting that you weren't invited to and you can tell that this train is going on a track that you did not [00:37:45] think it was going down and, you know, I'd be like, you know what, that's alright, okay.

Yeah. This too shall pass, right? Like, something else is gonna pop up.

Music: Mm

en something doesn't happen, [: 00:38:00

Yes. And so like, it's okay to be hurt. It's okay to be disappointed, but know that that means you have space for something else.

s: In order to believe that, [: 00:38:15

And so we cheat ourselves of the opportunity to believe our own [00:38:30] stories that are helpful.

Catherine: Forget to reflect on the wins.

Aransas: Totally.

I just think that your heart [: 00:38:45

You're going to know how to feel. And if you can turn off the noise, which is hard to do for most of us, you're going to be okay. You know, you're going to be able [00:39:00] to do the things that you want to do in the way that you want to do them and not have that kind of regret. Like, Oh, why did I say that? Or why didn't I say that?

%. [: 00:39:15

Aransas: And you are the one in the position to make something of it. Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. Or

Aransas: to close the space.

all those thought and ears, [: 00:39:30

Like, right. Yeah. This isn't for me. I'm gonna walk away and that's gonna be okay too. You know? Mm-hmm . Those things can be difficult to get to in the moment.

one scary thing every single [: 00:39:45

And so I found very quickly that my threshold has changed in [00:40:00] terms of what actually scares me and what I now need to do in order to feel brave has shifted. But what's something brave? that you are going to or could do this

le week. This is a big week. [: 00:40:15

I'm going to meet friends there, but I'm not working. I'm just going for fun, which is like not a normal thing for me to do. My, my plan is to be very intentional to get out, and [00:40:30] I know it just sounds weird because I am an extrovert, but like, I also can like stay in a house and not talk to anyone, and so, but to really get out and see some old friends, and those kinds of situations, I think it's always like, there's pretty girls, there's pretty guys, and it's like, they're in the right clothes, and I'm [00:40:45] not pretty enough, you know, but like, My goal is to really get out every day and go to an event that I don't know anybody that I'm on the list for and just walk in and start up a conversation, which that's kind of my bravery for the week.

: Okay. Also extrovert here. [: 00:41:00

Catherine: Right? Especially I think at our age, now that we're old, we're just mature. In that so much of my life is spent around people that I know love and care for me. And so many of my social outings are with [00:41:15] people. And so I don't meet other people because I have the best friends in the world.

we've all closed so much. I [: 00:41:30

The more you go for different job interviews and not even job interviews, but the more you just talk to people in your industry, if you really love what you do, the more you might find that [00:41:45] next thing. And so when your company isn't hiring or they've had a hiring freeze, or you didn't get the promotion, you've already got this other network out there.

t caught up. And this is the [: 00:42:00

Aransas: I love that.

Catherine: [: 00:42:15

Aransas: disappointed you? Recently?

y life and it's kind of like [: 00:42:30

Mm hmm. And just keep that in the head, you know?

node of the cat method here [: 00:42:45

I love it. This is great. It was really fun to talk to you. I love your face. I love your voice. I love your story. I love your writing. I need

Catherine: to New Jersey.

Aransas: Yes. Please come visit us.

Catherine: I will. Such a [: 00:43:15

Aransas: So good to see you. for listening to the Uplifters podcast. If you're getting a boost from these episodes, please share them with the Uplifters in your life.

And then. Join [: 00:43:30

Music: Ah, big love painted water, sunshine with rosemary.

And I'm dwelling [: 00:44:00

Lift you up, oh oh oh oh. Lift you up. Doo doo doo doo. Doo doo doo doo. Beautiful. I [00:45:00] cried. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. It's that little thing you did with your voice. Right, in the pre chorus, right? Uh huh. Uh huh. I was like, mmh, ah, ah. Mommy, stop crying. Mommy, stop crying. You're disturbing the peach.